Upper Manhattan - Harlem

Wouldn't it be better to just spend a couple of days up there. Go during the day and night and walk around, than see if you feel comfortable. If you have to ask it's probably not for you.

I remember when anything North of 86th St. was considered "Upper Manhattan". LOL!

Even today 150th St. isn't considered "Upper Manhattan", it's Harlem.

How long does everyone think it will take this whole area to gentrify?

My wife and I will move to the area from the UWS this summer!

I see some room for additional price appreciation and further gentrfication- but if that is your reason for buying there- I believe there are better opportunities. This area falls into the 32nd precinct- and it has a number of large housing projects with a lot of gang activity. Compare the number of murders in 2012 (12) to nearby Hamilton Heights (2) which has no large public housing projects. That said, the narrow portion of the neighborhood related to this specific question has a lot less to worry about, but the larger neighborhood issues will be somewhat limiting to price appreciation and further gentrification. The lousy (but large) Pathmark, Starbucks, Duane Reade, etc do help this area along, but there needs to be much better retail options in order for this area to really thrive. I know that the section of 7th to 8th Ave is slightly further inland- but also don't forget Lenox in this area does have a long history of flooding due to the low lying nature of this portion of the island.

Thank you for the feedback semerun, it was helpful/informative and reinforces some of my very similar observations.

You're better off on the west side of Jackie Robinson Park (Edgecombe, St. Nick) closer to the 145th ABCD Stop.
There are bunch of newish buildings along the 145th corridor, and some of the pre-wars in that area are great.
Great stock of townhouses as well. The area is called Sugar Hill.

Best of luck!!!

Yeah, ms_w71 I think I agree. I've looked at 1 - 2 places around that area. Point being, you feel more comfortable the further "west" you go.

Thanks for the information.

Sugar Hill is a micro neighborhood of Hamilton Heights- not central Harlem...very different neighborhood. There are lots of posts on this board regarding Hamilton Heights.

guys, don't be so simple and naive, there will be no gentrification in that area

ask the unlucky guys who attended the presidential election last year, they witnessed who runs the blocks

An average of sales/comps in that zip code 10039, that is sales less than $1.5m, range from: (based on what I could find)

2010 - $563k
2011 – $511k
2012 - $541k

Depending on the bldg, amenities etc. How much above the average of these 3 years ($538k) would it be financially wise to pay ?

I guess it’s whatever someone is willing to pay.

While the average gives you an idea of what apartments are trading for in a neighborhood, it's not very useful for a particular apartment. PS90 would trade at a premium due to it's amenities and rich architectural details, while a generic new construction condo would trade at a discount to it.

Just be careful. Nothing is worth as much as your health and personal safety ... not even PS90.

Semerun brought up an interesting point about flooding. Perhaps given that Hamilton Heights and Washington Heights are at elevations, they will become more desirable as they will be safer areas to be during hurricanes, etc.

>they will become more desirable as they will be safer areas to be during hurricanes, etc.

Yeah, that's it.

The elevation was a consideration in my decision to purchase in Hamilton Heights, albeit at the time that was low down on my list. That was 7 years ago- before recent flooding in Manhattan. After the last two years of powerful hurricanes, I would have raised the elevation issue higher in my priorities. I bought my apartment knowing I may live here for 10 or more years. Higher up on my list of priorities were more neighborhood structural issues- in this case, Columbia University's campus expansion on the border, multiple lines of subway access, crime, minimal public housing projects, and lots of home improvement projects nearby. I also didn't know at that time that City College was also expanding and looking to raise their profile. Back then, there was barely a block without major renovations taking place on at least one home or building. Combine all of that with an apartment floorplan that met my needs and ridiculously low property tax and I was sold. The neighborhood is still a bit gritty- but the pace of change is speeding up now that it's being recognized as an alternative to neighborhoods much further south.

There a lot of interesting apartments for sale and townhouses for sale right now in the area. A good number of them seem to be going into contract, so that is a good sign.

you should also consider Hudson Heights (the nice part of Washington Heights)
it's cheaper than Harlem/HamiltonHeights and IMO much nicer/safer/cleaner.

I have lived at 181st and Fort Washington Ave for over a year and I love it.
(also, since we're talking about floods/elevations, I never lost power during Sandy.)

Why did you move from West 71st to West 181st?

OP - i own rental buildings in Hamilton Heights and in the area you are looking. My guess is that you're looking at Tahl Prop's doorman building on the park? Correct??? It's a nice building.

If you're renting I would say the area you're looking in is ok for a couple/few years. The savings on the monthly rent charges would be nice. But I wouldn't buy there. I just wouldn't want to live in that neighborhood for 10 years. Sugar Hill/Hamilton Heights is just much farther along in the improvement process and I think it's an awesome area to be buying in today.

If you're renting and can afford the extra couple hundred bucks per month, then rent in Sugar Hill. If money is really tight, or your credit isn't the best then I think you'll be fine looking east of Jackie Robinson Park.

Actually looked at some apts in Hamilton Heights 2/3 bedrooms - 140's off Bway. Just seems to be a bit pricey. This area is definitely a lot better than it's "eastern side" counter part that I started this thread with.

The consensus seems to be that the area specified in my OP is "iffy" (putting it mildly) regarding safety.

I haven’t been up to/looked at Hudson Heights yet – but I’ll do some searching and check it out.

Rent's for Harlem, regardless of where, seem to be shooting up lately.

I don't see how this is true "that the area specified in my OP is "iffy" (putting it mildly) regarding safety." - I certainly disagree with that. I think it's safe, I just don't think there are enough good restaurants/retail stores and so if you can afford a better location, for just a couple hundred bucks more per month, you could be near Broadway.

Rents are certainly moving up quickly (but I think they still are very affordable relative to similar neighborhoods with similar amenities.)
My 4-beds in walk-up buildings were $2,800 last summer - this summer they will be $3,200.

If you were looking to buy in 140's/Broadway I'd recommend you reconsider. Prices there will never be this cheap again. City College is improving and more and more students from middle class/ upper-middle class families are moving in. And obviously, Columbia will be finishing some buildings soon.

I just want to add my two cents worth here. Lots of informed opinions are above, especially Jazzman and Semerun have clarified issues about different neighborhoods. But I can't imagine the idea of starting research via this board if your real estate investment is going to be where you live. Home is a very personal concept--it means different things to each of us. So, go walk around. When you are down to specific blocks, properties, or even kinds of buildings, then I would think it's more useful to ask. I hope Lking4apt has been looking in person!

"Harlem" is not one place. Some of it's down on the flats, some of it's up on the heights. Mt Morris Park is not Hamilton Heights along Broadway. The 140s, 160s, 180s on Broadway are very different from each other. 150th St on RSD, Amsterdam, Convent and down in the flats are all quite different from each other. Washington Heights and Hamilton Heights seems to me significantly distinct in many ways, and I'm not sure the price differences suggested here are valid. The ACP/AdDoug area is decidedly different in most ways from the other vicinities discussed here.

There can be differences even within the micro-neighborhoods which comprise Harlem. I recently moved from 141st and Broadway to Convent and 151st, both within Hamilton Heights. I love both areas--they are in the same zipcode, a little more than 10 blocks (half a mile) apart, and yet they're very different. In my old location, almost everyone had Spanish as their first language, and the neighborhood featured lots of extended families, single men who'd come to the US to work and send money home renting rooms from extended families, and groups of just-out-of-college room mates. In my current location, it's largely a mix of African Americans and miscellaneous white new comers, families seem to be smaller on the whole, and people seem probably more professional overall. I'm not the US Census Bureau, so I don't have stats about income, demographics, employment, etc--this is just how it looks to me.

Both places seem to me unquestionably safe, at any hour of the day or night. Both are already very nice and seem to be evolving in good ways. Neither area has very many new-construction buildings, though there are some in both. Adequate retail is available in both places, and in both there are signs of continued evolution in the works on that front. If you're concerned about elevation, I believe City College (Convent Ave and 138th St) is the second highest point on Manhattan island, so the campus might be a good place to start building an ark and filling it with two of everything we want to save before the next flood.

I have worked and lived in 10031 for quite a few years now. There hasn't been anything not to like in my experience. I moved here because I liked what it already was. I understand planning for the appreciating success of investments over time, but I think choosing somewhere to live has to include the actual NOW as well as the projected future. So I wouldn't ask when an area will gentrify (however we evaluate that), I'd ask whether it is already somewhere I want to live today.

71 to 181 because my apartment was too small and too expensive

uptown2012: +1
one thing interesting about a move from 141/broadway to 151/convent is that the commute to midtown/downtown from 151 is actually faster:)

I think that overtime we'll find that 141/Broadway starts to resemble the UWS faster than 151/convent. The retail on Broadway will be better than the retail on St Nick.

I like the proximity to Fairway and the new restaurants just south of 125th on Broadway that 141/Broadway provides (but I prefer the access to the A/B/C/D trains that 151 offers).

Regardless - everyone will notice big changes this summer in HH. Landlords are seeing significantly better applicants for our vacant apartments. We now have more applicants than we have vacant apartments. HH will get better educated, richer, and less populated (meaning a 4 bedroom with 8 people living in it will be replaced by a group of 4 roommates) - but it will also get much more expensive.

Jazz: are the sale prices for rental properties reflecting higher rents?

Thanks for that thoughtful comment Uptown2012.

Uptown2012
about 6 hours ago
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I just want to add my two cents worth here. Lots of informed opinions are above, especially Jazzman and Semerun

jason10006
23 minutes ago
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Thanks for that thoughtful comment Uptown2012.

Jason - not you.

why?

Jazzman--

So true about Broadway in Hamilton Hts becoming more like the UWS sooner than the Convent Ave corridor. It's funny how that works--my theory is that it doesn't matter how lovely or ritzy the townhouses are, it's retail that expresses the transformation of neighborhoods. And the big buildings on Broadway and Amsterdam with large numbers of tenants can turn over and renew themselves, thus influencing the patterns of change in neighborhood demographics. I think Hamilton Heights will become the premier 20-something neighborhood in Manhattan soon, based on apt availability and rents, and when some critical mass of young folks is attained, we'll see cute restaurants and fun bars and t-shirt shops popping up all over. St Nicholas isn't ever going to have that kind of vitality ... but maybe it'll get another restaurant or so ... or a nice vegetable store. The real question to me is when/if Amsterdam in the upper 140s and 150s will start up-scaling itself. I guess we'll just have ot wait and see ... unless Semerun's crystal ball can tell us.

You guys are charmingly delusional.

Hamilton Heights doesn't have big buildings on Broadway, and the density (present and future) will never be comparable enough to the UWS to stimulate retail in any meaningful way; Hamilton Heights has the big bad Manhattanville projects, and others very nearby; Hamilton Heights has had an endless string of "upscale" eateries come and go over the past 15 years, the total number at any one time never really increasing at all; Hamilton Heights is a dumping ground for the bad-behavior partying Dominicans who have moved to Westchester and beyond ... and the local fuzz are on the take to keep it happening; Hamilton Heights' local precinct boys are on the take in general, at every little business and without trying at all to hide it; Hamilton Heights is on the pokey two-track local part of its overcrowded subway line; Hamilton Heights' small-midsize buildings are predominantly locked into various low-income programs and will NEVER be gentrifiable; Hamilton Heights is anchored by a ginormous sewage treatment plant; Hamilton Heights has never in its history been an upscale area (unlike central Harlem).

It just ain't happening. Sorry.

My crystal ball has been mostly accurate regarding Hamilton Heights...but not 100%. What I have been noticing is that- yes, lots more college educated 20's somethings are moving up here. I think they have been priced out of Williamsburg, as well as other areas of Manhattan- while the rents up here are still reasonable for recent grads. While Hamilton Heights is very different than the FDB corridor of central harlem- I think we can use the parallel of the fact that new residents will drive the retail- and that there is a delay between the two. The other component of history that is worthy of consideration is that in the late 80's/early 90's Broadway retail developed before Amsterdam retail florished on the UWS. If history is any guide- Broadway should transform quicker than Amsterdam. I also noticed an article a few weeks back about educational levels throughout the city by census tract. I don't recall the exact borders- but the areas within Hamilton Heights that shined seemed to be Convent Ave closest to City College and 145th-150th? (not sure the upper border) in the Broadway/Amsterdam/Riverside area- with a large percentage of bachelors and masters degrees. Looks like Harlem Public and Chipped Cup set up shop in the right location more than they realized. When I moved here 7 years ago a large portion of the neighborhood didn't even graduate from high school. The bigger obstacle of bars is the prohibition era laws regarding proximity of churches to bars. I do eventually see Hamilton Heights looking more and more like the UWS- but the limitations of bars/restaurants serving mixed drinks will slow the transformation.

nyc10023 - yes, the new sales prices already reflect the new higher rents. Pricing has gone crazy. A building bought at 8x the rents a year ago could be sold for 10x the rents today. This is great news for the buildings I own and bad news for the buildings I want to buy.

Alanhart,

That's true, that with the exception of Convent Avenue, much of Hamilton Heights' housing stock was originally built for more modest residents or owners than that of some of Central Harlem. That is correct historically and architecturally, and you're right that it's a factor now. But it's not the only one. COnsider: the Lower East Side is an example of an originally very modest area that has become pricey and sought after today. And the Bowery! Among others. So, more than original class distinctions affect the fates of neighborhoods today.

As for the Manhattanville projects, I would say that they are not in Hamilton Heights. Neighborhood boundaries are famously subjective and unofficial, but I don't believe I have have ever before heard it suggested that they are in this neighborhood. I'd say the 'hood begins just above them at 135th St. and runs north to 155th St. And I'd say that an interesting feature of this neighborhood is its relative lack of public housing overall. But obviously you disagree and likely we won't find a consensus.

The sewage treatment plant is indeed here--as is its beautiful, functional, very appealing park above the treatment facility. I swim in the gorgeous Olympic size pool at Riverbank State Park regularly, and take wonderful, affordable yoga classes there. It's one of my favorite things about living here. I'm sorry to hear you don't like it. Opinions can obviously differ about that sort of amenity as well, but it sure seems to me as though the many people who use the park love it.

without the sewage plant we have no riverbank park - i would take the plant and park any day of the week.

While Alanhart brings up some important points- the two of us had these very same debates several years back (perhaps 2008? or maybe even earlier before I had an actual screename on this site). The neighborhood today has a dramatically different feel than it did back then. Back then Alanhart said Columbia would have no effect on the neighborhood, though it turned out to be incorrect. My point is there are structural reasons for the change in retail today and you can't compare neighborhood efforts in the past to today. A big developer recently purchased the former Hamilton Theater (most recently El-Mundo), Duane Reade recently opened here, new residents are coming in droves with Bachelors and Masters degrees, Stores that were drug fronts have been closing, a large commercial brokerage firm that never previously marketed properties in the neighborhood has, etc... In fact in the early days of the streeteasy talk boards- there were only a few people bullish on any part of Harlem.

As for the endless string of upscale eateries coming and going for the last 15 years- Yes, you have had a few, but far from endless- and this is what typically happens in the early stages of a changing neighborhood.

The Manhattanville Projects are in Manhattanville- not Hamilton Heights. Yes, it's near the border, but it doesn't impact Hamilton Heights in a meaningful way. There are no large housing projects in Hamilton Heights.

Hamilton Heights also contains Sugar Hill- which historically was upscale.

Here's the deal ... for proper gentrification to occur, the neighborhood has to be prepped by way of a deeply entrenched population of junkies and/or dealers, hard stuff (heroin, crack) required. And gunfire. Then there has to be a phase of Uhdesirable Types, usually including The Gays, artists without trust funds, and a general mix of Crazies. Then the gentrification begins, usually with the minor Trust Fund Brats. More monied TFBs, with more expensive drug habits, follow, and from there it takes its course, until it hits rock bottom and a string of, say, Marc Jacobs ragshops clots things up.

The Upper West Side had, in addition to those developments, great architecture, plus all those ugly flat 12-story buildings on the wider streets.

The Lower East Side, you are correct, in completely devoid of good architecture, but enough heroin and gunfire to propel it along a little faster. Plus pickles.

Central Harlem & FDB corridor: the key elements, but not so much the Undesirable Types mentioned, plus in the case of Central Harlem the architecture. Not so FDB for architecture ... but it got over the hump by means of a well-designed and well-timed "seeding" program of City-sponsored rehab-to-owner-occupancy tenement-to-apartments things going on.

Hamilton Heights, despite its Corner Boys, lacks a good solid, stolid base of heroin addicts or a meaningful population of crackheads. It hasn't attracted the Undesirable Types (it's a certified 100% artist-free community, and only a smattering of The Gays who aren't very serious about it in any event. And look at all the people with broken-down cars ... clear evidence that there are no lesbionic girls in residence.

So what's it best compared to? I hate to say this, especially if you've sunk too much into a down payment ... but Long Island City is the best comparison. And not the shiny new Anywhere architecture that was built on top of the Saran wrap "abatement" of an EPA Super Fund site, forming a city-within-a-city that's properly called the City of Dystopia. I'm talking about go-nowhere inland LIC, which has been about to be the Next Big Thing since at least 1980, but never quite happens.

Note that Hamilton Heights has no place to put a gigantic new city-within-a-city.

Take a good look at the young people you see in Hamilton Heights, at Harlem Pubes, at the sewage sludge-burning health-hazard park. Do you see the look of nothingness in their faces, like they're in Altoona or St. Joe or Cincinnatus, have no inner life, and their blood sugar levels are falling fast? Hardly the glue that makes NY gentrification stick.

Now look around at all the other people in the neighborhood. Get to know their faces. They live in non-market rate buildings that will remain so forever. They will never be displaced.

Inadequate critical mass to get restaurants, et cetera, to stick. Ever. Status quo.

Burger King would thrive there.

@semerun: all your points are very valid, and informed with knowledge of someone living in the neighborhood.

I also have been living here for the last 5 years, previously on Riverside in the 150's, then bought on Convent Ave in the 140's.
I feel good about the choice so far, never had any issues with being bothered or feeling unsafe, and certainly the Chipped Cup and HP added value here. I wish someone would do something about St. Nick's Pub now, after reading the NYT article this weekend where it wasn't even mentioned.
Didn't realize the fact about the bars and churches, and there are certainly a lot around in HH!!!!

Hope more people see value up here, there are enough beautiful affordable apartments up here still!!!

Ummmm, how has Columbia's expansion affected Hamilton Heights? Have they even moved beyond sub-foundation infrastructure stage?

I love when people think universities necessarily help neighborhoods and towns by their mere presence. Look at Morningside Heights a couple of decades ago, despite Columbia's continuous presence since the 1890s. Look at New Haven, West Philly. Look at the numerous other large campuses across the country, anchoring their dying towns.

The trend in universities, by the way, is to force as many students as possible into university housing and university dining. There are nice kickback-paying private sector companies to "help" with all of that, especially these days the housing.

Well, Alanhart, you are certainly very funny in your little tutorial about gentrification. And there's much to what you say. But any theory that dogmatic is going to have exceptions.

I don't get it why people feel so threatened or annoyed or whatever it is by the idea that a nice part of the city is getting ... well... nicer. What's so hard to accept about that? Sure, there are lots of people of modest means living in 10031 and I hope they aren't going anywhere soon. But the townhouses are being snapped up and fixed up. HDFC building will(mostly) wend their way from city protections to free-market coop status over a couple decades. And at the end of the day, Ham Hts isn't like LIC ... because it's on Manhattan island. This is a very special, very specific little chunk of real estate, and they aren't making more of it.

I'm not quite sure what your issue is about the city within a city--is there some movement toward erecting Corbusian towers in potential gentrifying NY neighborhoods that I haven't heard about? I think you're on stronger ground about Columbia--their hole in the ground will take a long time to become buildings, and their original campus notoriously has turned its back on the community around it since it was built. But anyone betting against any Manhattan neighborhood's being at least middle class in the long run is making a mistake in my opinion.

Very well said Uptown!

The reason why I stress Columbia as part of the change in the neighborhood is the students and professors- the issue is more than just the new campus buildings. In my building alone we have had a variety of students over the years- mostly from the main campus, but also from the Med school. We also have units owned by those that teach at Columbia. I have also noticed lots more Columbia students throughout the neighborhood in the last few years.

as rents increase near Columbia's main campus and crime rates decline in HH, I see more Columbia students. Currently I'm renting to more Columbia students than ever before. Notably, I'm renting to more City College students than ever before also.

City College will have a much greater impact on rental rates than Columbia will. Kids are tired of all of their student debt. New students actually are doing the math and seeking more affordable colleges. Because the neighborhood is now safe and the school is cheap, City College will continue to attract better and better students. And with 16,000+ students, even if 20% of them started living near campus......

The best thing that could possibly happen to that neighborhood would be if City College were to completely drop all vestiges of "open admissions" and roll their student body, instructional staff and administration size back to what it was in 1970.

Or a Duane Reade. Look what it did for LIC.

Why, alanhart?

Don't forget to research bed bugs, crime rates, etc.

This is just getting silly. There isn't much to discuss unless we are all using facts, and to be a fact, something has to be current and accurate.

Alanhart, I'm pleased to bring it to your attention that CCNY dropped all vestiges of open admissions quite a few years ago. We no longer offer remediation, our entering students must be high school graduates, and they take SATs. Many who apply don't make the cut. Our most selective programs, including Sophie David School of Biomedical Education, Engineering, Architecture and some of the BFAs are very competitive. The CUNY Honors College students are routinely admitted to Ivies and choose to stay in NYC and attend CCNY or one of our sister schools. That's not open admissions!

And I'm not quite sure what you are saying about the college's size--do you want fewer students, faculty and administrators? Uh, why? That makes no sense to me, and it's not going to happen anyway. Two state of the art science research buildings are underway on the campus now, so we can grow, and grow we will.

Anyway, this only matters to me because I really care about our public university, so much so that I teach there, and it doesn't seem to have much to do with the question of the virtues of the neighborhood overall. It really isn't germane to the original question here ... which after all wasn't even about the neighborhood in which CCNY is found. I'm guilty of posting lots here about Hamilton Heights in a thread directed to Central Harlem, so my apologies to the original post-er.

But wouldn't it be more interesting--and even more fun--if we could all try to work with facts rather than outdated stereotypes?

Uptown2012, we're always beating back the insanity of the Alanharts. I want a signature that says: yes, it's safe. yes, i raise my small children here. yes, i am white. yes, i lived downtown and have knowledge of the pros/cons. at this point, all i can say tp people considering moving up is: get on the subway/bus/in you rcar. get off at the 157th st stop, or 145th, etc...and see the construction and new shops. have coffee at chipped cup. or a beer at Harlem Public. or dinner at Antika or Tonallis. decide for yourself. i am such a believer in the area speaking for itself now that i feel less and less compelled to defend it.

Good, let the one cafe and one bar and two restaurants defend it .. after people get on the subway/bus/car and get off three days later in your neighborhood. If they make it safely.

Uptown2012, CCNY still has a long way to go to reach the Nobel-prize machine level that it used to offer. And you're right, it lacks the motivation to try. If it did, though, it would be considered the top "public Ivy" in the nation. Honors Colleges, as at so many public universities, are little ghettos that allow administrators to cart them out whenever they need dog and pony shows to shut people up ... while continuing bloat and mediocrity in the rest of the university. Fail. The new construction (and its accompanying debt to pay off, btw) only makes the overall situation worse. The situation being the bloat desired by faculty who want more tenure opportunities (which require more students) and by administrators who want their resumes to reflect their command over x students and y instructors/staff. De facto open admissions still reigns supreme, and there's no real attempt to boast of low acceptance rates. This, despite the population in the City remaining nearly unchanged since what, the 1940s? What's the justification for a larger student body? Are exiting high school students all above average these days? Hint: no.

LOL @ "three days later...if they make it safely"

FACT: time on subway from 145th Street to 42nd (taking the local 1 train) is about 20 minutes.
(source: google.com/maps)

I put Alan on ignore long ago, because no matter what the topic, if it involves upper Manhattan, he is just going to hurl insults with no accompanying substantial or logical arguments. One time a friend of his was mugged or something along those lines and so now you all waste your time replying to him because he is convinced its all still like the Fort Apache the Bronx.

...like those of you newer to the boards THINK he is joking, but he is dead serious. He thinks upper Manhattan is like Robo-cob or Escape from New York.

seems analfart took enough medicine these days

he is right this time about city college. this school was once good because:

1. education was not for every one at that time
2. it was a much nicer area at that time

glad, liz, youre so happy with your hood gittin whiter!!

pls dont defend it

>Uptown2012, CCNY still has a long way to go to reach the Nobel-prize machine level that it used to offer. And you're right, it lacks the motivation to try. If it did, though, it would be considered the top "public Ivy" in the nation. Honors Colleges, as at so many public universities, are little ghettos that allow administrators to cart them out whenever they need dog and pony shows to shut people up ... while continuing bloat and mediocrity in the rest of the university. Fail. The new construction (and its accompanying debt to pay off, btw) only makes the overall situation worse. The situation being the bloat desired by faculty who want more tenure opportunities (which require more students) and by administrators who want their resumes to reflect their command over x students and y instructors/staff. De facto open admissions still reigns supreme, and there's no real attempt to boast of low acceptance rates. This, despite the population in the City remaining nearly unchanged since what, the 1940s? What's the justification for a larger student body? Are exiting high school students all above average these days? Hint: no.

Wow, go alanhart!

Well, here we all are, with our positions firmly established and no longer really responding to each other or--in some cases--even listening. Too bad, the topic here was an interesting and important one before we all got caught up in our fixed positions. I like Eliz's idea--my signature would read something like "Yes, I really like the neighborhood just the way it is, and yes, I have lots of reasons for believing its future is bright. And PS, I don't think "gentrification" is entirely good."

My favorite thing about StreetEasy discussions is that lots of people who know more than I do routinely post their wisdom here. But when I am reduced to reading what people who know less about a particular topic than I do repeatedly post, well, then I guess it's my fault for not ignoring them. I really do like it when the knowledgeable and thoughtful voices share their perspectives and offer valuable scoops on topics the rest of us don't know as much about, though.

I liked your posts uptown, and you live to far North for my tastes. But you were informative.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2013-04-03/news/system-failure-the-collapse-of-public-education/

A few posts ago I talked about comps. In the buildings I've looked at which had apartments I'm interested in I looked at previous sales of apartments with similar square footage to compare it to the apt I was interested in, the most information I could find. I realize some apts differ - better views, outdoor space etc. But is it not logical to analyze it from a CPSF ?

Any advice on determining comps ?

Comps aren't perfect - don't try to make them perfect.

Find a place you like and get it for you.

Exactly: don't try to apply logic and rational thought, or you'll never buy a place in Harlem.

Yeah, you're right AH....the heck with logic, rhyme or reason. Where's my checkbook!!

Seemed to have strayed from the area the OP questioned. LKING4APT take heed to the tactful way Semerun responded. This area has issues that aren’t going away any time soon. How long do you intend to stay in the area – short term…..? you will do better looking into other areas.

The area has gang related problems. Would you walk your dog along ACP or FDB @ 1:00 in the morning ? , yellow cabs in the area ? , housing projects, lack of retail etc. Check the NYPD crime stats.

HH’s has shown much better progress.