Co-op prices

Do your "Due Diligence"

By good, I would define it as a co-op with a big slug of revenue- retail on the ground floor or a garage. Kepps your maintenance down.

By "good" I define (aside from the specific unit in the co-op that you choose for whatever personal reasons) - location, condition of the building (after review by an inspector prior to completing the signed contract), financial stability of the corporation (after review of two or three year's financials), a reasonable approach to quality of life issues (after review of house rules and amendments), and of course, comps that evidence an appropriately healthy record of sales.

There's no magic formula for what makes a "good" co-op, and co-op buildings are as different from each other as snowflakes.

The variables are almost endless. As matsonjones pointed out, there's location ... physical condition of the building (including another universe of variables, like age of elevators, number of employees, age and condition of the roof and windows, etc.), building financials, etc.

, quality and nature of the shareholders,

as i told you 4 yrs ago, w67 will destroy you.

and he has.

they will interview you, but you can't interview them.

they could impact your ability to sell your "shares".

they will take your tax abatement.

they will tell you what you can and cannot do in and with "your" apartment.

why on earth would anyone want this, other than to feel better about living in a exclusionary and discriminatory bubble?

they will interview you, but you can't interview them.

*Of course you interview them. You review their initial offering plan (if applicable) and financials, you inspect their building, you look over the house rules and all amendments, and you can just as easily decide to walk out of the board interview.

they could impact your ability to sell your "shares".

*Condos also have the right to preempt your sale by offering to buy your unit, and it is increasingly common for fancier condos now to have a purchase application for prospective buyers invasive in complexity and demands to co-ops.

they will take your tax abatement.

*Oh please. Examples?

they will tell you what you can and cannot do in and with "your" apartment.

*Condos have the same precise house rules and complex applications for renovations, they have the right to reject and/or alter any plans, and serve up the exact same quality of life fines for breaking the rules.

why on earth would anyone want this, other than to feel better about living in a exclusionary and discriminatory bubble?

*To avoid living with poorly informed shareholders (*holds up mirror to condo*)

Without speculating about future performance, as to Greenwich Village coops (which I track most closely), prices are now at or above peak prices of the past. In many buildings from 8th street to 13 th street, prices are up 25% since 2008. Most listings i see are selling within 45 days.

I agree with above posters that AAA location or as close to it as you can get is the most important factor. Followed closely by building quality and strong coop financials. It isn't rocket science to determine this upon review of the annual statements, assessment history, appearance of building, past and planned capital projects, patterns of sales within e building. Next you look at desirability of the particular unit in terms of light, views, layout. Condition iof the unit is a factor as it bears on how much money it will take to make it up to date, but unlike location and coop financials, unit condition can be improved.

For all the nonsense people go on about in terms of apocryphal stories of coops, the structure works exceedingly well for the vast majority of owners in coops and lends tremendous stability to a building's financial health and long term quality of life there. It isn't for everyone and the beauty is that no one is forced to live in a coop. Since many people have long time horizons and use an apt as a primary residence, restrictive sublet policies and strict financial requirements for entry are seen as advantages, not drawbacks.

If you want to truly make money, tying up a huge lump sum in RE is usually not wise. Diversified holdings are a better bet. But to buy a residence to live in and which will have the best odds of appreciation, I always start with AAA location. Buying twice as much space in an unproven fringe area still in transition (or worse, awaiting a transition) is a high risk pursuit.

Without speculating about future performance, as to Greenwich Village coops (which I track most closely), prices are now at or above peak prices of the past. In many buildings from 8th street to 13 th street, prices are up 25% since 2008. Most listings i see are selling within 45 days.

I agree with above posters that AAA location or as close to it as you can get is the most important factor. Followed closely by building quality and strong coop financials. It isn't rocket science to determine this upon review of the annual statements, assessment history, appearance of building, past and planned capital projects, patterns of sales within e building. Next you look at desirability of the particular unit in terms of light, views, layout. Condition iof the unit is a factor as it bears on how much money it will take to make it up to date, but unlike location and coop financials, unit condition can be improved.

For all the nonsense people go on about in terms of apocryphal stories of coops, the structure works exceedingly well for the vast majority of owners in coops and lends tremendous stability to a building's financial health and long term quality of life there. It isn't for everyone and the beauty is that no one is forced to live in a coop. Since many people have long time horizons and use an apt as a primary residence, restrictive sublet policies and strict financial requirements for entry are seen as advantages, not drawbacks.

If you want to truly make money, tying up a huge lump sum in RE is usually not wise. Diversified holdings are a better bet. But to buy a residence to live in and which will have the best odds of appreciation, I always start with AAA location. Buying twice as much space in an unproven fringe area still in transition (or worse, awaiting a transition) is a high risk pursuit.

KyleWest, Matonjones and Cresent22, thanks so much for your input. I am not trying to make money, but hoping that the co-op that I intend to buy into will appreciate over time too. I know there is a premium of condo over coop, but I intend to live in it and not rent it out so the flexibility is not that important to me.

Kylewest, what do you think of 49 W12th #10C? This unit is priced fairly high (non-renovated) compared to the last sale of a 2BR 2BA unit.

Belgariad: Good luck!!

Cbreeze, the unit 10C is ambitiously priced. It needs a new kitchen i would guess and since bath isn't shown i imagine that is needed too. So for a non-mint apt, i would say it is overpriced by about 15% for current market based on a very quick look.

Maybe 20%

I think that what's a "AAA" location and what's a "good" co-op doesn't always correlate with the tastes of the market, so that trying to predict the tastes of future buyers is tough, even with those two pieces of information.

If you'd told me five or ten years ago that I was going to see one-bedroom units at 2 Charlton sell higher than one-bedrooms at 33 Fifth Avenue, I don't think I would have believed you. I would have said that the tastes of the market prefer pre-war (33 Fifth) and that Fifth Avenue was a superior location.

and yet...

Because prices do fluctuate, I'd really suggest that you buy what you like, with an eye towards buying into a slightly "aspirational" building for you, whether that means in terms of location or neighbors or whatever.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

>one-bedroom units at 2 Charlton sell higher than one-bedrooms at 33 Fifth Avenue

Examples?

i just baught one and i already see prices moving....i think the biggest factors have to be location and the building itself.....also FINANCIALS FINANCIALS FINANCIALS bc w the power a board has your maintenance and assesments are at the mercy of the buildings financials. i think a factor also has to be the board. a good smart board that is protective of its building but not rediculous in the qualifications to get in will also help value...in the end buy where you want to be bc if you find the right mix some people never leave they just move to larger spots in the building

Greensdale, what did i miss?. They're very close. 33 fifth one bdrm sold for $920k. 2 charlton has one listed at $949k. Prior 2 Carlton one bdrm sale was over $1mm but apt looks larger. Frontporch's point seems reasonable. Do you see something else in the comps?

>Greensdale, what did i miss?. They're very close. 33 fifth one bdrm sold for $920k. 2 charlton has one listed at $949k. Prior 2 Carlton one bdrm sale was over $1mm but apt looks larger. Frontporch's point seems reasonable. Do you see something else in the comps?

No, I just wanted someone to to post the detail here on the thread.
(the 33 Fifth layout is lacking)

As previous posters have mentioned, there are so many factors involved in determining a "good" co-op. Financials are a huge part of it. Location is of course the #1 factor. Also, you may want to check into how much turnover a co-op has relative to its size. Downtown, there seem to be a number of solid buildings that have seemed to miss the boom over the last several years. Sometimes when owners love the building they are in, they do not sell their place just to make money off the latest "wave". That can give the appearance that there hasn't been much appreciation on a particular co-op because there are not enough sales to back up that point.

"Kylewest, what do you think of 49 W12th #10C? This unit is priced fairly high (non-renovated) compared to the last sale of a 2BR 2BA unit."

To give you a hard comparison on this one, my wife and I put in an offer on 8C back in 2010 @ $950k, the place was in estate condition and wasn't worth a penny more at the time, needed $150k to do a nice renovation. Seller wanted minimum $1.1mm and came back to us 6 months later after 2 lost buyers (guessing after they did their due diligence...possibly on both ends) and were willing to negotiate in the high $900's.

10C is in much better condition but I'm confident any buyer would want to do a full renovation, so at least $80k-$100k for kitchen and baths...etc.

Assume 8C sold for $975k in summer 2010 and needed $150k, has 3 years really justified the price increase?

BTW, I no longer have an SE subscription so can't see what 8C ultimately sold for...that would obviously be a helpful fact.

8C sold for $1.195M.
I guess the location is very desirable for a lot of people.

12/15/2010 Previously Listed by Owner
03/22/2011 Off market temporarily
03/30/2011 Listed by Halstead Property at $1,195,000.
06/14/2011 Listing entered contract.
07/22/2011 Listing sold.
09/15/2011 Sale recorded for $1,195,000.

I was told the board is very strict on financials and a buyer has to put about 40% down payment. If the board is so strict then I think the units in this building has limited upside potential, is this right? Or do you think the location would attract very qualified buyers?

The location definitely attracts qualified buyers. My understanding is the board requires 25% down but of course you should have a good two years of housing payments post closing.

if you can list the top 3 locations what do think that they are to purchase a coop--- im trying to keep it away from naming large areas bc of how much prices within the area can vary.. instead of upper east side smaller areas within it such as carnagie hill or lenox hill and instead of midtown east like turtle bay or sutton place etc...i just think it would be a cool thing to list...i was gunna create a new thread but this seemed like a better idea.