Total Wreck Apartment

p.s. manhattan coop

Yes, I believe you can; a more economical route, however, would be the "Apartment Fitter" approach: Same concept as BathFitter - only in this case, the entire apartment - appliances included - is sheathed in a fiberglass jacket.

As a wide selection of colors & textures are available, it's something worth considering.

wholehousejacket.com

I think probably yes, but it's going to be tight, and it isn't going to be to the standards of many of the posters on this board.

If you're spending $180K, it probably breaks down as $25K architect/building fees/permits; $40K kitchen; $55K baths (I'm assuming that covers two; $20K electric, $20K floors, and $20K wall removal/plaster/painting. Experienced renovators, is that how you'd budget it?

ali r.

I'm doing such a project at this precise moment, and am approximately half way through.

I really don't think $150/psf total all-in is any longer a realistic assessment for a Manhattan co-op total and complete gut renovation. Many people talk about $150 psf as the "bottom" such a renovation might cost, but I just don't see it as a reality once the architect is involved and you want something that truly looks half way decent - particularly allowing for the unforeseen exigencies such a project invariably uncovers. I think you really need to be at $200 psf as a realistic bottom for such a complete and total gut renovation.

Urgh, that's what I was afraid of...

And having said that - $200 psf will still require vigilant monitoring of the budget and expenditures by you on a regular basis to make sure it does not balloon beyond that, and towing a firm (but always kind and considerate) line with your architect and contractor as well....

Having said the forgoing - I *love* the entire process of doing a really nice quality gut renovation - I've done a number of them for myself in Manhattan coops and condos, and have it down to a pretty good science. It's something I enjoy tremendously.

I think the minimum would be $200/ft

@matsonjones - I wish I had your experience! I'm worried that I might be getting myself into too much of a tight financial situation. This will be my fist foray into this world and the prospect feels so daunting.

Ask primer he's the best. He did my 1000sf home and I just keep getting one compliment after another for the work he did.

I had a few quotes on a wreck of a 950 square foot 1 bedroom/1 bath apartment with similar issues. All came in around 125K. I bought the apartment and, based upon expenses so far, the estimates are pretty close.

NOTE on WIRING: We knew that the fuse box had to be upgraded and the outlets changed to accommodate 3 prongs before we could start work on the kitchen (coop rules). However, we did not realize that the wiring and ceiling fixtures were totally shot. Fortunately, there were conduits in the walls, so the rewiring was very easy. The big expense was adding 9 outlets that required channeling the walls which led to skim coating every room (patches then transparent). The apartment is 60 years old and had never been upgraded to accommodate modern appliances/electronics.

ProInNyc,

Thank you (email me so I know who you are)

It is possible to do renovations for 150.00 a sq ft but you have to do your leg work and find great bargains. It also depends on what your expectations are, Do you want the walls to be pristine? What types of finishes?

Jelj13, That doesnt include purchases like tiles, and plumbing fixtures correct?

I am in the midst of doing just this. It's a prewar untouched for forty yearsand needed new everything. Our cost not counting appliances or kitchen and bath materials is about $170/sqfoot. We squeezed the contractor up front and of course now have extras, so it may even be premature to say. Also, where do you plan to live while carrying the mortgage plus maintenance? That is probably our biggest add-on expense (which we'll never see again). As everyone will tell you, and I'm sure you know, it will take much longer than you or the contractor plan.

In terms of appliances, I got some deals at Karl's, and Viking had promos. Otherwise, Kitchenaid Architect Series looks sleek and is reasonable.

well, again, the question is what does "halfway decent" mean to you? Our kitchen faucet just broke, and we got a new one from the hardware store for $125. It's chrome, has a sprayer to clean pots, and hot and cold water come out.

I think that's an appropriate level of improvement for our (sub-$1 million) UWS apartment, because our next buyer will just rip the kitchen out anyway, but it's not the right level of improvement for everyone. I bet MJ knows who his faucet designer is.

Since matsonjones loves this so much, might he be willing to be your mentor? It might be worth a few bucks to enjoy his expertise?

front_porch/Ali: My kitchen faucet designer is Sonoma Forge - http://www.sonomaforge.com

drdrd: I'd be happy to share any expertise I can, and no bucks are required.

Aael921: For what it's worth, my architect/contractor team have come in on budget and on time with every gut reno I've done. The only time costs goes up is if I decide for specific work order changes in the midst of the project.

re: $25K architect/building fees/permits

you dont "need" an architect. A good GC can do your basic living area plans (or better yet do them yourself)and a quality kitchen cabinet supplier will do your kitchen plans for free. So it's possible to ratchet that $25,000 down to more like $5-8,000.

If there's no architect, who's going to file the job with DOB?

West34,

The op states that they want to remove 2 walls. Most buildings will require architectural drawings as well as permits.

MJ, if you're going to spend those $$$ that's not a bad way to go.

West34 "...you dont 'need' an architect..."

When it comes to a total gut reno, any reasonably responsible co-op board will absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, *demand* architectural drawings in advance for their appointed in-house building inspector/engineer to review, before you even approach the DOB.

It's well meaning "advice" like yours that completely causes havoc for people like the OP homesweethome101. For a full gut co-op reno, it's a fool's errand not to hire an architect *and* contractor already familiar with negotiating NYC co-op board rules and demands.

front_porch/Ali: I think all my bath and kitchen fixtures get installed this week :-) the Sonoma Forge stuff really is quite lovely....

If you're going to spend $150k or north on a smallish apartment, a good architect is probably worth his/her relatively small cut. They can help you make the most of the space and provide some oversight of the contractor and other vendors when they keep adding on. Plus the DOB filing as noted above. We had an expediter, and it was still our architect who eventually went down to the DOB to push it through (after two months).

I used NYC RenovationCoach (www.nycrenovationcoach.com) for my renovation about 18 months ago. I bought a TOTAL wreck from a sponsor that had a rent stabilized tenant living unit for almost 50 yrs. NOTHING had been done in that time except for a few hastily slapped on coats of paint every few years -- the plugs didn't even have grounds! With Asher's help, we completely redesigned the apt (and I mean completely -- only 1 original wall remains standing) and I now have a beautiful 1 bed with home office, large open kitchen with breakfast bar and a walk in closet that's the envy of all my friends. Not bad considering I started with a 1 bed with a galley kitchen. Oh, and he came in on time and budget. I've referred him to friends and clients and everyone loves him. I know I sound like an ad but when I trust and believe in people, it's hard not too :-)

Matson - it's advice like yours that convinces people to blow (waste) insane amounts of money ($25,000+!) to have some monkey file a few forms with DOB. Think for yourself for once. Plans and filings are two different things. I've been thru the DOB site, know what needs to be filed and know that all thats required is licensed architect or engineer to sign off. Go ahead, waste $25,000 freakin thousand dollars on 10 hours of work. I've found cheaper ways to get the same result.

Then again some people can't take a dump without a cleaning lady, personal trainer, stylist, and motivational coach to show them how.

> take a dump without a cleaning lady

foreigners!

why have you dumped fieldchester?

The facts are these.

Most building will require an architect for extensive renovations. That doesn't mean you need to hire them for design. If you hire a decent architect just to get the plans filed and permits pulled it will cost at least 15k. There is really no way around that. Design is another story. It also costs money to have the architect supervise the project. That's never a bad thing if you can afford it.

Ah see, with all due respect Primer (seriously) we are now down from Ali's $25,000 to your $15,000. And I have a sneaking suspicion that if the OP said "Jeff get the drawings and permit pulling down to $10,000 and you're hired", you wouldn't being shooing her out the door. Especially if she said "oh and btw my cabinet company is supplying the kitchen plans.
The OP is looking for a bargain basement approach. I gave her a tip that works. Tried and tested.

Primer05: Yes, it included tile and plumbing fixtures based on products I used in my last apartment.

West34: You're a f*ckin' idiot.

First quote "...you dont 'need' an architect.....So it's possible to ratchet that $25,000 down to more like $5-8,000..."

Riiiiiiiiiight.

Then you get the harsh reality from both Primer05 and I that any responsible Manhattan co-op board will *require/demand* an architect for extensive renovations. So after getting schooled on that little factoid, suddenly you change course and say "...we are now down from Ali's $25,000 to your $15,000..." - which is only 100%-200% more than you initially claimed at first, when you said one doesn't "need" an architect at all! And please read carefully - Primer05 stated "...it will cost *at least* 15k..." (notice that term *at least*). So you're just assuming the lowest possible amount of $15,000 is the number, again, when it isn't. Yup - it's more, to be sure.

And we haven't discussed the use of an architect that may be additionally required/demanded by Manhattan co-op boards for any supervision/oversight of design aspects related to advanced procedures such as movement of any gas/plumbing stacks, wet over dry, issues related to asbestos, structural wall reorientation, and so on. Except of course - according to you - one doesn't "need" an architect at all!

People like you, who "...Think for yourself..." and then advise others, are the sorts of f*ckin' idiots who make massive budgetary miscalculations - all at other people's expense. Have you ever even done your own personal full gut renovation in a Manhattan co-op?

Re: Have you ever even done your own personal full gut renovation in a Manhattan co-op?

Yes, full gut kitchen. And I didnt waste $25,000 on an architect. You f*ckin' idiot.

if intelligence, taste and financial prudence is expressed by one's choice in plumbing fixtures here's my my vote:

MJ is clearly the imbecile here.

that sonoma crap is totally overpriced and ugly--of a design that, even if liked now by some strange, small group within the NY re market, will be gut garbage in only a few short years.

whatever you do, dont put crap like this in your renovation--if you need to sell, it will be a liability, a liability you will have paid serious bux for. imbecilic.

I am a licensed architect interested in assisting you with your proposed renovation. Please feel free to contact me directly: richard@manhatta.net

West,

Tries and tested? Again, if the building requires architectural drawings then you need an architect, no?. Ali is not wrong, there are different degrees of which an architect can be hired. There are a lot of people who hire an architect for plans and construction supervision, then its back to 25k and more.

You dont think kitchen cabinet places include a fee for there drawings? ask them to come out and give you drawings without hiring them or ask them if they need a deposit first then dont hire them and see if they give the whole deposit back.

As I said, West34 is f*ckin' idiot.

Oh - but wait - he *did* do a gut reno! - wait for it - he said he did one (1) kitchen!!!

A kitchen is NOT a full gut reno, asshat. It's a kitchen reno.

Wow. A real oracle, that one......

West,

When you do a full gut renovation of a kitchen you generally do not need architectural plans, that is correct. If you want to knock down a wall to open the kitchen they might require a permit which requires filed architectural drawings. We just finished a project on East 79th Street. It was a gut bathroom, gut kitchen, skim coating, etc. I did not think we needed a permit but.... $11,500 later (that was just to open one wall, no design in a one bedroom apartment)

yikes: I've done four full gut renos. This number five. I've made a very nice return on each, including architect fees, contractor labor, materials, and all other costs included (broker's fees, taxes, flip taxes, closing costs, lawyers, etc., etc., etc.). I'm really not worried.

If you don't like my taste, that's fine. It doesn't threaten me. I'm quite sure I wouldn't like yours, either.