My husband and I are first time coop buyers. We have a small, well-behaved dog and two small, clean, quiet cats (for the record, we never wanted three pets, but inherited the second cat when my mom lost her house in hurricane Sandy). We have always been transparent with our agent and sellers' agents about our pets. We recently saw a place we loved, in what was billed to us as "one of the pet... [more]
My husband and I are first time coop buyers. We have a small, well-behaved dog and two small, clean, quiet cats (for the record, we never wanted three pets, but inherited the second cat when my mom lost her house in hurricane Sandy). We have always been transparent with our agent and sellers' agents about our pets. We recently saw a place we loved, in what was billed to us as "one of the pet friendliest buildings in the neighborhood" (although that's been said to us a lot). The seller's agent, who also happens to live in the building, said, "The rule is one pet per room. I think there's one woman who has 9 cats!" Since the apartment we liked has 5 rooms we weren't worried. We told her right off the bat that we had three pets and she said that was no problem. So, we put in an offer, it's accepted, and we're moving to contract. We review the coop application and see that, lo and behold, the pet policy states a 2 pet maximum (max one dog, and max two pets total, so you can have a dog and a cat, or two cats, but not more). Of course, we freak out. Our broker tells us not to worry -- he reassures us that because the seller's agent lives in the building, if she thinks it's won't be a problem, it won't be. He thinks that she'll have sway over the board and says she wouldn't let us move forward if she thought it was a big risk, because her reputation with the board is on the line.
Then we talk to our attorney who tells us otherwise. He says not to trust the brokers at all, that they have no control over the board or the rules and if the rule is no more than two, then that's the rule, no way around it. He says our only options are to either get rid of a pet or lie. He also says most coops have a two-pet limit so we will be in this position on almost any place we try to buy. Our brokers don't think we should lie, but rather be honest with the board and assume that we'll be strong enough candidates that they'll allow the extra cat. After all, it's just one cat instead of two, not at the level of let's say trying to get a dog into a no-pets building, or trying to get a pit-bull accepted in a building that has a 20 pound max.
I feel very torn. I hate the idea of lying and went into this wanting to be upfront and transparent. On the other hand, I feel like if we're completely honest with the board and just try to fly in the face of the house rules when applying, we're setting ourselves up to be rejected. I don't see why they would be inclined to make an exception for us -- rules are rules, and while we might be great potential tenants, at the end of the day coop boards reject people all the time ,and this seems as good a reason as any other. I feel more inclined to just say we have one dog and one cat, and assume that it'll be easy to just not mention the second cat, who will more or less fly under the radar. We'll have to be a little sneaky, but nothing crazy. I don't like lying, but it just seems like the safer option -- if a lot of people in the building ignore the rule anyway (based on what the seller's agent said), it doesn't seem like as big a risk as being honest and getting flat out denied. And if it's true that most buildings have this rule, then moving on from this place might not help us because we could end up in the same position over and over again.
Was curious to get outside thoughts/suggestions. Having never gone through a coop board application or lived in a coop board before, I really have little sense of how these things play out. I wouldn't consider trying to get into a no-pets building and lying about all of them, nor would I lie about the dog. But two cats vs one seems much more minor. Help!
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Response by wishstar
over 10 years ago
Posts: 28
Member since: Jul 2013
I would ask to speak to the board. In my building there is also a two pet policy. There are people grandfathered in with more than two, but once one of them dies, they can not replace it if it means more than two pets. Explain that you were told it was not a problem, and that you can not, and will not give up one of your pets.
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Response by lad
over 10 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009
To me, it sets the wrong tone in a Board interview to ask for an exception to any policy. It just screams "DIFFICULT SHAREHOLDER" in big red letters.
The only possible exception is if someone has inside knowledge that the same Board has previously approved shareholders who openly stated that they have more than two pets. Sometimes, co-ops do have policies on the books that they either don't enforce or selectively enforce. E.g., we have a sublet policy of one year only (no more, no less) with no renewals. In reality, the Board members have all agreed we would allow a long-term sublease to non-problematic tenants. We keep the policy on the books because otherwise we'd have no recourse against problem tenants.
If you do decide to lie, I think your risk of getting caught is minimal. And, even if you do get caught, I'm not sure the building would spend the time and effort trying to get a second cat removed. For what it's worth, I'm the President of a (very very small) building with the same pet policy. I would not approve any prospective shareholder who disclosed that they had three pets (although my pet-loving fellow Board members might). That said, if someone moved in with a dog and two cats -- and in a building this small, we would know -- I would not do anything about it. OTOH, if someone moved in with two dogs, I would immediately start legal proceedings.
Good luck -- you sound like a reasonable person, and I think odds are that this will work out in your favor one way or another.
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Response by Aaron2
over 10 years ago
Posts: 1695
Member since: Mar 2012
Are you looking to justify your lying because the 3rd pet will 'fly under the radar' and you won't have to do 'anything crazy'? How will you feel when the next purchaser lies and they have 3 yapping dogs that keep you up at night? If you beg the board to let you violate the house rules with a third pet, how are you going to complain when the next beggar gets to have 3 Dobermans? If the Board is willing to bend the rules for the persuasive arguers, or not enforce a not-unreasonable house rule, what else are they willing to be 'liberal' on that will negatively affect you down the road?
You have been persuaded toward unethical behavior by a seller's broker who has placed their interest in selling a unit and getting a commission (with complicity by your broker) above their responsibility to follow the rules of the building they are representing and live in.
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Response by nyc_sport
over 10 years ago
Posts: 809
Member since: Jan 2009
So, the way I see it, you have one dog and one cat, and you are cat sitting for the time being you mother's cat. Case closed.
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Response by bramstar
over 10 years ago
Posts: 1909
Member since: May 2008
This is a frustrating situation to find yourself in. Sounds like the broker/seller either had outdated info on the house rules or blatantly misrepresented building policy to you.
Either way, house rules are house rules and are there to keep the building comfortable for all tenants. In my co-op we would not allow an exception to house rules for the same reasons Aaron outlines in the above post. Asking for an exception to be made will flag you as difficult and may get you rejected.
Never take a broker's or seller's word for things like pet policies, sublet and pied-a-terre policies, etc--always check with the managing agent to confirm. Keep in mind that boards change house rules from time to time so it's possible the seller/agent will have outdated material, which may have happened in your case. That said, the selling agent should have immediately confirmed the building's pet policy since he/she knew from the start that you had several pets. Simply going by the word of the seller was foolish and unprofessional on the agent's part.
I agree that lying would be bad. The policy is what it is. Sneaking in an extra pet would mean you are in breach of your proprietary lease, which could get you evicted. Yes, it could happen. All over one cat.
All this said, every co-op board is different. While in my building there are absolutely no brokers, residents or other, who have any 'sway' over the board, that doesn't mean that the co-op to which you are applying is the same. Maybe they bend rules all the time. Maybe the selling agent really does have the ear of the board. But if I were you I would not go any farther until you have determined whether the board would even consider you with the extra pet. This should likely be done via the managing agent of the building, not through hearsay from your broker or the selling agent.
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Response by fieldschester
over 10 years ago
Posts: 3525
Member since: Jul 2013
My building has a two ferret limit.
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Response by Flutistic
over 10 years ago
Posts: 516
Member since: Apr 2007
Lying would be beyond stupid. The board could cancel your lease, remember a co-op "owner" is just a renter who happens to have equity interest in the landlord's company.
What we almost did--but ended up not having to do--was have our attorney put a rider in the contract that protected us if we were rejected because of pet issues. Atty offered to do this.
Your bigger problem is that the seller will pass on you. Why take a chance in this market?
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Response by lad
over 10 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009
Yes, the Board could try to take action against someone who sneaks in an extra cat. But is the Board really going to spend the time and money to hire a lawyer, etc. in order to do so? Odds are low, unless it's a widespread problem impacting the building (e.g., crazies with nine cats, multiple yapping dogs, etc.), and the Board goes after all violators.
The Board can certainly threaten to evict the tenants or cancel the Proprietary Lease, but the odds that it will actually be able to do over a second cat are basically zero.
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Response by JJ2
over 10 years ago
Posts: 114
Member since: May 2014
No pets is NO pets
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Response by karanc
over 10 years ago
Posts: 32
Member since: Jun 2012
I share your attorney's sentiments and I say this as a broker. You should not lie. Not only does it have the potential to land you in a courtroom but also, assuming you are approved with the lie, do you really want to play hide and seek throughout your time in the coop? No place, regardless how exceptional, is worth the incessant stress you would be welcoming every time you vacate the cat from the apartment. You are buying an apartment in NYC, which is a beautiful accomplishment. It should be celebrated and cheered. Instead you would be walking in hesitant and doubtful having known you started this relationship based on a lie. So my advice is ask your broker (not seller’s) to reach out to management and get a firm answer on pet policy. Your broker or attorney can also make an appointment with the management office and speak to them in person if there are any unwritten rules which cannot be communicated via email. At the end of the day, if the answer is a firm 2 pets, walk away and continue your search elsewhere. What’s meant to be yours will be yours. I wish you good luck in achieving the best outcome in this situation!
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Response by jelj13
over 10 years ago
Posts: 821
Member since: Sep 2011
I made an offer on a place with a 2 pet limit. I told them I had 3 cats up front during the interview. One I "inherited" from a relative; the cat was elderly and in bad health. The Board said this wasn't a problem. They would be more concerned if we had 3 large dogs or animals that made a lot of noise. Some boards are not as rigid about the rules as others.
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I would ask to speak to the board. In my building there is also a two pet policy. There are people grandfathered in with more than two, but once one of them dies, they can not replace it if it means more than two pets. Explain that you were told it was not a problem, and that you can not, and will not give up one of your pets.
To me, it sets the wrong tone in a Board interview to ask for an exception to any policy. It just screams "DIFFICULT SHAREHOLDER" in big red letters.
The only possible exception is if someone has inside knowledge that the same Board has previously approved shareholders who openly stated that they have more than two pets. Sometimes, co-ops do have policies on the books that they either don't enforce or selectively enforce. E.g., we have a sublet policy of one year only (no more, no less) with no renewals. In reality, the Board members have all agreed we would allow a long-term sublease to non-problematic tenants. We keep the policy on the books because otherwise we'd have no recourse against problem tenants.
If you do decide to lie, I think your risk of getting caught is minimal. And, even if you do get caught, I'm not sure the building would spend the time and effort trying to get a second cat removed. For what it's worth, I'm the President of a (very very small) building with the same pet policy. I would not approve any prospective shareholder who disclosed that they had three pets (although my pet-loving fellow Board members might). That said, if someone moved in with a dog and two cats -- and in a building this small, we would know -- I would not do anything about it. OTOH, if someone moved in with two dogs, I would immediately start legal proceedings.
Good luck -- you sound like a reasonable person, and I think odds are that this will work out in your favor one way or another.
Are you looking to justify your lying because the 3rd pet will 'fly under the radar' and you won't have to do 'anything crazy'? How will you feel when the next purchaser lies and they have 3 yapping dogs that keep you up at night? If you beg the board to let you violate the house rules with a third pet, how are you going to complain when the next beggar gets to have 3 Dobermans? If the Board is willing to bend the rules for the persuasive arguers, or not enforce a not-unreasonable house rule, what else are they willing to be 'liberal' on that will negatively affect you down the road?
You have been persuaded toward unethical behavior by a seller's broker who has placed their interest in selling a unit and getting a commission (with complicity by your broker) above their responsibility to follow the rules of the building they are representing and live in.
So, the way I see it, you have one dog and one cat, and you are cat sitting for the time being you mother's cat. Case closed.
This is a frustrating situation to find yourself in. Sounds like the broker/seller either had outdated info on the house rules or blatantly misrepresented building policy to you.
Either way, house rules are house rules and are there to keep the building comfortable for all tenants. In my co-op we would not allow an exception to house rules for the same reasons Aaron outlines in the above post. Asking for an exception to be made will flag you as difficult and may get you rejected.
Never take a broker's or seller's word for things like pet policies, sublet and pied-a-terre policies, etc--always check with the managing agent to confirm. Keep in mind that boards change house rules from time to time so it's possible the seller/agent will have outdated material, which may have happened in your case. That said, the selling agent should have immediately confirmed the building's pet policy since he/she knew from the start that you had several pets. Simply going by the word of the seller was foolish and unprofessional on the agent's part.
I agree that lying would be bad. The policy is what it is. Sneaking in an extra pet would mean you are in breach of your proprietary lease, which could get you evicted. Yes, it could happen. All over one cat.
All this said, every co-op board is different. While in my building there are absolutely no brokers, residents or other, who have any 'sway' over the board, that doesn't mean that the co-op to which you are applying is the same. Maybe they bend rules all the time. Maybe the selling agent really does have the ear of the board. But if I were you I would not go any farther until you have determined whether the board would even consider you with the extra pet. This should likely be done via the managing agent of the building, not through hearsay from your broker or the selling agent.
My building has a two ferret limit.
Lying would be beyond stupid. The board could cancel your lease, remember a co-op "owner" is just a renter who happens to have equity interest in the landlord's company.
What we almost did--but ended up not having to do--was have our attorney put a rider in the contract that protected us if we were rejected because of pet issues. Atty offered to do this.
Your bigger problem is that the seller will pass on you. Why take a chance in this market?
Yes, the Board could try to take action against someone who sneaks in an extra cat. But is the Board really going to spend the time and money to hire a lawyer, etc. in order to do so? Odds are low, unless it's a widespread problem impacting the building (e.g., crazies with nine cats, multiple yapping dogs, etc.), and the Board goes after all violators.
The Board can certainly threaten to evict the tenants or cancel the Proprietary Lease, but the odds that it will actually be able to do over a second cat are basically zero.
No pets is NO pets
I share your attorney's sentiments and I say this as a broker. You should not lie. Not only does it have the potential to land you in a courtroom but also, assuming you are approved with the lie, do you really want to play hide and seek throughout your time in the coop? No place, regardless how exceptional, is worth the incessant stress you would be welcoming every time you vacate the cat from the apartment. You are buying an apartment in NYC, which is a beautiful accomplishment. It should be celebrated and cheered. Instead you would be walking in hesitant and doubtful having known you started this relationship based on a lie. So my advice is ask your broker (not seller’s) to reach out to management and get a firm answer on pet policy. Your broker or attorney can also make an appointment with the management office and speak to them in person if there are any unwritten rules which cannot be communicated via email. At the end of the day, if the answer is a firm 2 pets, walk away and continue your search elsewhere. What’s meant to be yours will be yours. I wish you good luck in achieving the best outcome in this situation!
I made an offer on a place with a 2 pet limit. I told them I had 3 cats up front during the interview. One I "inherited" from a relative; the cat was elderly and in bad health. The Board said this wasn't a problem. They would be more concerned if we had 3 large dogs or animals that made a lot of noise. Some boards are not as rigid about the rules as others.