UWS Public School Options

FYI, it is likely some kind of rezoning will happen in D3, aimed to alleviate segregation:
http://www.nypress.com/local-news/20160726/school-rezoning-debate-continues

Do people think this can affect property value? I certainly think so.

Speaking as a UWS parent with a kid who just started Kindergarten today at PS 87, I have heard positive reviews from other parents about PS 199, PS 87, PS 9, PS 452 and the French program at PS 84. I even know a parent who elected to send her child to the French program at PS 84 over PS 87. Manhattan School for Children is also popular among District 3 parents. As for charters, parents tend to speak favorably about the UWS Success Academy.

I do think that any rezoning can affect property values. There is simply higher demand for homes that are zoned for certain schools. For example, I have several clients who refuse to look at anything outside of the geographical zones for PS 199, PS 87, PS 452 or PS 9. If a block is zoned out of one of those schools and into PS 191 or PS 166, then demand for homes on that block will likely fall. How much that will affect price is difficult to quantify, but it is often a top priority for families.

Dan Gotlieb
Digs Realty Group
www.digsrealtynyc.com

So as a parent of preK child, are we practically guaranteed a spot in the PS 9, 452, 87, 199 zones if we buy or rent there? I know there is a lot of talk about overcrowding but it seems somehow magically, the wait-list is cleared every year it seems. Which of these schools is best from the perspective of overcrowding and rezoning?

Uganda, the West Side Rag does a decent job keeping on top of this issue. They just posted the schedules for upcoming rezoning meetings.
http://www.westsiderag.com/2016/09/08/times-and-locations-set-for-school-rezoning-meetings

Go to one.. They are eye opening. Most people want the best for their child. That doesn't always fit with what the DOE, looking at the bigger picture, can or should do.

ganda, there is often a lottery at the schools you mentioned, so nothing is guaranteed. PS 87 had a waitlist of about 34 students last year (thankfully my son got in and we didn’t have to deal with it). Since applications for public schools, charter schools, gifted programs and private schools are handled differently, many families use public school as a fallback option and, withdraw their child when they hear from their top choice. Thus, the waitlist very often clears, but there is no guaranty.

Dan Gotlieb
Digs Realty Group
www.digsrealtynyc.com

Great information from all of you - thank you. I am actually currently in the PS 191 zone, so I'm wondering if in the next year or two, we might have a decent PS option right where we live! If they turn all these zones into a big 'superzone' perhaps PS 191 will be the new good school - or is that just wishful thinking?

any RE agents can answer the question what's the difference in price to move to the worst school district on the upper west side? are we talking a big amount of savings?

batraa, nothing is cheap but prices are lower the further north you go. Generally speaking, I think you'll see meaningful savings (relative to typical co-op prices in the school zones located b/w 66th-85th) in co-ops in Manhattan Valley, Morningside Heights and perhaps some of those former affordable housing high-rises that have turned market co-op along Columbus in the 90s. The PS 191 zone is around Columbus Circle and prices there are typically on par or higher than much of the prime UWS. Lincoln Guild also sells at a relative discount to the surrounding neighborhood, and that is presently zoned for PS 199.

Dan Gotlieb
Digs Realty Group
www.digsrealtynyc.com

thanks Dan. being cheaper going north could be due to location as well as school district. our thinking is if we can move there (ideally early 2018) and not go to a prime school district we can save some money. and if our plan is to eventually sell it 10 years later, hopefully the schools have improved enough - which i believe will happen.

but prices are still way too high for us unfortunately.

Brokers aren't going to speak to a specific school catchment because a) they can change (as you see negotiations going on in the south end of D3) and b) it risks being a Fair Housing violation. (You will notice that firms vary in their policies of whether they will even tell you what the zoned school is for any given district).

I will say that school choice is pretty personal; my plan as an UWS parent is to send my kid to a school that most people in my building turn their noses up at, but many people in my building have sent their kids to schools that I turn my nose up at, and those kids seem just fine.

If you do want to do research, I'd go to a local playground and talk to the parents, but realize also that a big part of the difference between "rich" schools and "poor" schools is PTA enrichment, so if you think you'll save money by moving into a "poor" zone realize that in five years you'll be asked to reach into your pocket to fund a science teacher.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Very useful info here, keep it coming please! As a parent it's not clear what to do. Buying anywhere in the the PS 199/9/87/452 is very expensive, yet schooling is not anywhere near guaranteed and even then could have overcrowded classes. To make things worse, there is very low housing supply for even small family sized apartments. Personally, I'd rather not get into a coop due to many reasons, the biggest being liquidity in case I want to get out sooner than 5-10 years and invasion of financial privacy. Narrowing down to condos with a layout we like (open kitchen, open views and good light) only, there is almost nothing on the market on the UWS! Unless you can pony up more than 3 million, and that too for a lottery! I wonder if BPC is a better option.

http://www.westsiderag.com/2016/09/20/zoning-lines-remain-up-in-the-air-after-contentious-school-board-meeting

For affordable and good private school options, check out Catholic schools e.g. School of Blessed Sacrament on 70th & Broadway. $800 per month. so about $9600 a year. not $45,000 a year...

Well, I specialize in co-ops so I'd say that's the place to take the pain --- I've only seen one customer who really needed the privacy -- if it's just a matter of preference, then I'd try to deal with it. I think many of the condos on the UWS, while beautiful, are in less-than-fabulous locations (not talking school zones, just talking about the sites that they're on) and the others are astronomical.

so let me know if you want to talk about co-ops.

Even buying one will not spare you, though, from the pain of the schools process. Even before you hit elementary, there's the question of preschool, and to get into prestigious preschools (where you'll pay upwards of $20K for less than a full day of care) is wildly competitive, whether you're in a prime or less-than-prime location. Then you do it all over for kindergarten, and you do it again for middle. The high level of hassle is one reason people head to the suburbs.

ali r.

front_porch, the other reason I like the idea of condos vs coop is liquidity (to sell out quickly) and optionality (to rent out) in case school does not work out or we get fed up of the schooling situation and want out to go to the 'burbs immediately.

ganda, I might think hard about FiDi then. There's a lot of condo stock (due to tax breaks given to developers to rebulld after Sept 11) but it's near parks, easy access to Governor's Island, etc.

Fidi/BPC would be nice, but I'm not ready to jump in for about 1-2 years when elementary school begins. I'd be open to buying a co-op on the UWS if the prices for apartment with features I want (large open kitchen and layout, good windows, open views and light, modern renovation) were not astronomical (2m or less in my case) and if there was the possibility of subletting or selling was easy. Until, then I'm probably stuck renting on the UWS for the next 2 years.

thanks Front porch for your comments on schools. kind of stinks that brokers won't talk about the schools - it's a pretty important point for many people. since we don't need to worry about schools, i was wondering if we could save some money going to a worse school district. but it doesn't appear that you can save THAT much money. maybe if you move more to the 90s/100s versus the 70s/80s on the west side. ps my son's school asks for 1500 per family for enrichment. they all do it.

Well, I don't know what the OP is doing for pre-K. If you're paying $20K/yr (or more) for that, then getting hit up by a PTA for $1500/yr probably seems like a relative bargain... brings to mind the old saw "where you stand depends on where you sit."

Don't put your hopes in public schools--they don't care about their customers. A few options: homeschool, private tutor, private school.

ha, we put our hope into Public schools and got very lucky with a great school. Front porch - exactly. i think we pay more for preschool. we can't wait till both kids are in public school and no need for a nanny. we can finally start saving some money again.

With the current fight going on for PS/191/199/452 rezoning, it seems better to stay away from all those schools? That leaves PS 87 and PS 9 as the two remaining good schools without any DOE drama.

I think there is DOE drama for all school zones in District 3 under at least 1 of the proposals on the table. If school zone is your #1 priority in your housing search, you should either (i) find a place that is not affected (or negatively affected by your standards) by any of the proposals that are on the table, or (ii) wait until this all shakes out next month.

Dan Gotlieb
Digs Realty Group
www.digsrealtynyc.com

good points dan and ganda.

Yes waiting until next month to hear the UWS decision is definitely a good idea!
Assuming we want our child to attend K in year 2018, what date do we practically have to move into the right zone by? I believe the admissions process is around Dec/Jan and the pre-registration process is around March /April. Do we have to move before the admission process or the pre-registration process? With all the uncertainties in school admissions, renting certainly looks like a better option than buying.

ganda, what do you mean by the admission process? Is this for private schools? For public school, you just need to have proof of address at registration time in March. It would be wise to wait till the school zones are finalized.

http://www.westsiderag.com/2016/10/18/school-board-backs-rezoning-plan-that-would-move-ps-452-add-another-building-to-ps-191-zone