How to negotiate with architect?

I've been working with two architects (first didn't work out after several months of messing around, second seems great so far) on a small project, and it has been an interesting experience to say the least.

In terms of budget, I completely agree with you that 375-500 is a wide range. I'd say this is a big issue, because if the range is that wide on day one, it will only get wider as things go on, problems are found, all of which uses architect time and money to resolve. I think you need to be very frank about this - basically say he budget is 450, and if it goes over that then the project gets cancelled - the budget and scope are not open-ended or negotiable. If they can work
with that, great, if they want to be working on a project with a budget of 500, then they need to keep looking somewhere else for that project, and not turn your project into that.

For the layout - it's good that you know what you want. Again, I'd suggest being quite clear about this - that you know the layout, and need the architect to handle the finer details, plans, permits, approvals, and technical side of things. You might find that some architects want to revisit everything from first principles, treating the space
as a blank slate, when in fact there's really not much scope or point in doing that with a typical apartment that just needs a refresh.

Lastly - do yourself a favor and make sure that you're dealing with a licensed architect - i.e., check their license number on the NYS website. Only a licensed architect can actually get what you need done with the department of buildings, and face off against the building architect where needed.

I would not sign up for a percentage of the cost. Flat fee is the way to go and have your agreement explicitly state that field changes and design revisions are included in the flat fee. I am guessing you are doing a 2 bed room reno. $25-50k should be the range including interior design such as lighting, floor color, paint color, wall-paper, closet design, toiler paper holder, bath towel holder etc. Working with the expeditor and building management is included as well. High-end of the fee for very experienced architect. Famous architects will be more. If you just want some one lay-out the wall and get approvals, it is much cheaper. In that case, you will need the services of a designer for the results to look good.

I think the architect is right in having a wide range when dealing with budgets. Any project can cost anywhere from $100 sq ft -$1,500 a sq ft for a complete gut renovation. Prices can vary as there so many variables. Did you discuss with him what finishes you would be using? You can buy a tub for $400 or a tub for 7k. It also depends on what kind of contractor you hire. You can hire one who will do the work for $100 sq ft or $1,200 sq ft.

It is important to find an architect that will listen to you. If you tell him/her that you are firm on your budget they should be able to design something in that range. You will find some who will include architectural items like cove lighting or recessed moldings that increase the price. Usually we get plans and submit a proposal and then we need to do value engineering to see how to get costs down.

For our renovation we talked to 7-8 architects and only two would charge a flat fee. All the others wanted a percentage of the project. We also basically wanted to copy another apt's floor plan and that didn't seem to make a difference. We only wanted the plans drawn and approved, no interior design or project management. Both architects gave similar proposals. We picked one and negotiated the price down 1k to 15k.

When the plan is ready we bidded it out, and the highest quote came in almost double the lowest one, which is from a legitimate design build firm. So I think the architect's estimate range isn't too big. Just be frank with him on your budget and do some value engineering. 300 is right that the percentage fee structure causes inherent conflict of interest.

There are many ways to go about hiring an architect and there are pros and cons for each.

You might only need one like FireGragon. One of my favorite architects would rather come in do the site survey and get all approvals and not do any design at all. That's the least expensive but if you hire the wrong contractor you are in for a rough ride. You can hire an architect to get everything approved and oversee the project, this is the most expensive but you, for the most part, can go through a less stressful renovation experience. (Probably). You can also hire an architect to get all approvals and hire them either for a set amount or by the hour to make several visits to ensure everything is going to plan. Also need a good contractor for this one. There is no wrong or right way, it depends on your budget and your comfortability level

I want to add a word in favor of the full service percentage based model. I was mostly out of town for a major gut reno of an estate sale apartment, and I really needed someone knowledgeable on the ground to oversee the project as well as communicate with the DOB, building architect, and in my case, the Landmarks Commission as well. I felt a good connection with an architect, as did the OP, and I felt like she respected my budget and didn't abuse my trust in any way. She took care of obtaining three GC bids and recommended that I go with the lowest one rather than the one she had worked with the most on previous projects. All three were a bit above what she originally anticipated due to general real estate inflation in that time period, but we worked together to make revisions that didn't make a big difference to me and got the price tag back in my range. From that point, the final cost was within 3-4% of the quote, plus I had minimal headaches, didn't make enemies of my neighbors before ever moving in, and was delighted with the result. I think if the OP has a good feeling about this architect (and of course does due diligence), he/she should make clear that the budget has to be at the lower end of the quoted range, and the architect can get the GC bids accordingly; at that point, the exact cost should be relatively clear rather than within such a wide range.

Alixi,

Did the architect work with all 3 contractors before? It seems odd that she would suggest using the lowest unless she knew them because the low bid usually ends up a disaster

@Primer
She worked with two of them before, and the other (which was the low bid) was just finishing up a job on the same line in the building, and she was able to take a tour before soliciting their bid for my project.

Thank you all for the input.

I did end up communicating my concern with the budget to this architect (who is licensed, member of the AIA and whose 3 references said she was great to work with. I do however, believe that she is on the expensive side. While talking to some of the references, I asked them all, "where do you stay during renovations" Most of them said they stayed in rentals that cost 6000 to 10,000 per month!! That's insane (in my opinion). My point, the clientele she works with must have lots of $$ to spend.

I'm going to wait on another architect's proposal by next week and make a decision.

I did get a design build scope of work but from what I'm reading, I should stay away from Design & Build companies.