Uptown living

what does your daughter think...she really needs to go to the bldg in the evening (9:00pm) and walk around the block, etc. If she feels okay than it's up to her.

don't sweat it - my wknd entertainment and main form of entertainment is taking 10-20 mile walks around the boros - that area is not terrible - it looks better to me than I remember the West 70s in the late 1970s.

The area is known as "Death Trap". Most people don't make it. Good luck!

mom, it's a fairly safe area. I studied up there as well fairly recently and there are plenty of girls in their 20s living alone in the area. You're right, most of them live in the 160s and 170s, but it's not much different in therms of safety. As in all of NYC, she needs to keep her head up, remain aware of her surroundings, and not fiddle with a cellphone or iPod while walking the streets alone. If she does that, she'll be ok. In terms of cafes, groceries, there isn't a lot, though there are a few things around the hospital area (168th). If she's ok with FreshDirect, I wouldn't worry about that either.

mom, don't you worry. Your daughter will find some young stud that lives in Tribeca and won't spend many nights on 157th anyway. With such a great deal on the apartment she should invest in some sexy underwear and maybe get a boob job. If cards are played right, she'll be in a downtown penthouse before the end of the semester.

Mom - she will be fine.
157th has a lot of foot traffic due to the subway on Broadway.
Not to divide by race but she will be riding the subway with a healthy mix of white, asian, hispanic and black. One of my units is on 157th between Broadway and Amsterdam. It's rented by two Columbia students. On 161st I rent to a young doctor and his wife and child. A nice walk a long RSD/Broadway will calm your fears when you see the number of families that live in the area.

If you need more comfort, run the crime stats for the area and other areas. You'll see there is no meaningful difference in terms of the major crime stats.

JM - hysterical! I will pass that on to my female tenants.

Mom - I lived on 139th and Riverside when in grad school at Columbia several years ago, walked and biked around the whole area between Columbia and 170's quite a bit. I am male, which obviously makes a difference.

It's definitely much more working-class than, say UWS, but I never had a safety issue, don't know anyone who had, and never felt like safety was more of a concern than elsewhere in Manhattan. People have done (and do) much worse.

I bought a condo about 10 blocks south of where your daughter is thinking of living. We have had some Columbia grad students rent in our building, as well as single women. When my father heard that I was looking to buy in the upper 140's, he thought I was nuts- he worked in the 130's back in the early 70's...and ran for his life from the gangs. It's now 3 years later, and the area is gaining services and a much more diverse crowd is moving in. It is safe to ride the subway and walk the streets at any hour- but as a previous poster pointed out- that there is no excuse for not being street smart and paying attention to your surroundings- I would freely offer that advice to someone living in Washington Heights as I would to another living on the Upper East Side.

I should mention that Washington Heights east of Broadway has some of the worst noise complaint problems in the entire city (I don't know how 157th fairs though). It's not a safety issue, but it could be one of a sleep and studying issue.

The area is OK and she should be fine. But, why doesn't she opt for a smaller place closer to Columbia??

Money. A 3 bedroom @ $1900 divided by 3 (herself & 2 roomates) is a fraction of what a studio for 1 person would cost in Morningside Heights or UWS.

Why is safety a concern....have you heard of and/or experienced unsafe situations in that area. In other words, what is your concern based on?

First, my sense is that an area that's always busy at night--because of restaurants and so forth--is safer, and I noted how in the 150's even Broadway is pretty empty after 10 pm. Second, WH (zip code 10032) is statistically one of the poorest neighborhoods in the city; doesn't that typically corrolate with higher crime rates?

mom: Forget other people's anecdotes for reminiscences. Look at the data....

The neighborhood your daughter is thinking about is covered by the 33rd Precinct of the NYPD. Here is the link to the crime stats of that precinct:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs033pct.pdf

The key thing to note is that for the full-year 2007, there were 5 murders, 13 rapes and 229 robberies. So far in 2008, there have been 1 murder, 12 rapes and 119 robberies.

For comparison, here is the link to the crime stats of the 26th Precinct, which covers the area immediately surrounding the Columbia main campus:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs026pct.pdf

For the full-year 2007, this area experienced 2 murders, 8 rapes and 206 roberies. So far in 2008, there have been 2 murders, 13 rapes and 95 robberies.

So according to the data (assuming both precincts cover the same amount of geographical area), it looks like your daughter's area was more dangerous than the main campus area for all of 2007 - 3 more murders, 5 more rapes and 26 more robberies, but things look to have evened out so far in 2008 - 1 less murder, 1 less rape but 24 more robberies.

For more info, the NYPD's main website is:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/home/home.shtml

Remember, when you look at census data you are looking at old information.....iMOM is right stick to the crime stats. Also, when examining WH vs the Columbia area crime stats...one more or less rape will probably not be statistically significant. The best thing to do would be to get out there and experience the environment.

mom -- one would think that the correlation would exist, but no, not the case.

Crime index = 66 at
http://realestate.nytimes.com/Community/profiles/Manhattan-Inwood-Washington-Heights.asp
where more than 100 is more than the US average for crime; less than 100 = less than US average.

Morningside Heights = 113
Upper East Side = 100 exactly

Of course, they refer to the nonexistent "Manhattan County", so maybe they just make it all up!

The difference between that and iMom's nyc.gov data might be because the NYT data considers a broader range of crimes than the nyc.gov data, or because it's not normalized for population (#) differences from precinct to precinct.

Anyway, you're right that the density and 24-hour busy-ness most likely keep the neighborhood very safe.

You sound like you're from the NY area, but in case you're not I want to point out that the entire crime profile of New York these days is oddly safe-skewed compared with almost all US metro areas, especially Philly, Miami, LA, etc.

Thanks, everyone...alanhart: I think it's really important to look at the specific crimes, and not just a general crime index. For example, if you look at year to date statistics, the police dept compstat lists 438 crimes occurring in the 33rd precinct (Washington Heights) and 573 crimes in my own precinct, the 20th (west 60's-80s). That is somewhat astonishing in terms of my perception of the relative safety of the neighborhoods--until you notice that 389 of the crimes in the 20th were grand larceny, ie car thefts, which (forgive me car owners) is really not a concern of mine, with 2 rapes, 61 robberies and 28 assaults, which are what concern me. Now in Washington Heights, the car thefts were only 127 (a third of my neighborhood farther south), but there were 12 rapes, 119 robberies, and 84 assaults. More crimes in the 20th precinct, but clearly a far safer place to live!!

mom. you need to relax. really. if you're this concerned chip in and and get her a place downtown.
seriously. much as i champion the area i hate to think of someone obsessing over their grown kid this much.

I don't think mom's obsessing or unrelaxed . . . just doing due diligence.

But, mom, you should consider that your daughter is probably mature, and thus street-smart, if her housing priorities revolve around a few more subway stops for a larger, nicer apartment. She'll be safe and happy.

Maturity doesn't = street smart. You probably won't be street smart unless you have been exposed to the streets....it's not something you can learn over night from a book. Anyway, good luck to mom and her daughter..... they might want to look into Central/West Harlem although it's a lot more expensive....just a thought.

why not rent a smaller apt. in a "better" area. You're daughter will probably spend very little time in the apartment.

julia-- again, it's about the cost. Where in Manhattan could she have her own bedroom & rent for less than $700 per month?

dg156--Is Central/West Harlem a more desireable area?

Mom - You can find places that cost about the same closer to Columbia. Is your daughter in NYC? If she is, tell her to look at the postings on the 110th street and 114th street bus stops on Broadway. These are the closest to campus and every student who is looking to sublet or share outs flyers up on these. I know how strange this sounds, but it's a local phenomena (sp?). I live in the area so I see great rentals all the time. Just a thought.

Central/West Harlem is gentrifying like no other part of the city. Recent examples of forward momentum: Rezoning of 125th st from river to river to allow for increased density and over 2,000 luxury condo units, hotels, restaurants, and theaters, Bloomberg idetified the area as a business hub/district that will contain restaurants, theaters and cultural venues, approx. three hotels planned for 125th street, the Apollo is undergoing and extensive rehab., Majic Johnson developed HarlemUSA which houses a large theater and other businesses, Major League Baseball's 24hr cable network is to move into Harlem Park (125th St and Park Ave) to be developed by Vornado Realty, many big box retail stores (ie. Macy's, Bed Bath & Beyond, J Crew, etc) vying for space along 125th street, many retail stores (ie. H&M, Marshalls, etc.) already there, a luxury car dealership selling Bentleys, Ferraris, etc. opened on Lenox Ave and 125th St, the East River Plaza a huge mall that will house Target, BJ's, Home Depot, etc. is being constructed in East Harlem which is nearby, Columbia has revitalized the piers from 125th to 137th by the Hudson River, Restaurant Row starting around 125th st by the piers includes Talai, Covo, The Hudson Cafe, Dinosaurs, etc., Harlem Hospital (135th st and Lenox Ave.) received approx. $250 Million from Mayor Bloomberg to construct new facilities and rehab the existing strcutures....etc, etc.

This area is more desireable, but pricing will be north of $700...check out: Halstead, Corcoran, and Prudential Douglas Elliman for availabilities.

For general background info on the revitalization of Harlem check:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/125th/index.shtml

As an add on to my post above....Columbia U's security is very, very good. As mentioned, I live in the neighborhood and I see security around all the time, especially in the late evenings. This being said, there is usually a really 'bad' incident once every 2 years or so involving a Columbia female (usually involving rape...the latest was rape and torture over a 48 hour period about a year ago.) I am really NOT trying to scare you; Just trying to give some reality to the statistics. It sounds like you/your daughter is/are weighing cost vs. risk, which is understandable. At an extra $200/month ($1200)/year I just think it's no contest to look closer to the main Campus.

Mom...you nailed it. The trade off for the area is explicit. A big space for less money. It's why investors like me buy there and kids like your daughter and families rent from us. But it is not the cool, hot spot and it isnt pretty or touristy. But it's cheap, safe, and has some of th emost beautiful apartments in NYC. When I first bought there about 15 years ago I would not have loved having my child live there. But, I also would have hated to see them in the East Village, Hells Kitchen and been mortified if they lived in the LES. Now, I would have no issues living in the area and have come to prefer it to the heaving toursit trap of downtown.

grunty: Was it the girl's boyfriend who perpetrated that act?

eah: are the buildings generally well maintained?

grunty, not to disagree with your point. but, i live in the west village and can name quite a few horrific events that happened below 14th st. in the last few years. the drunk girl killed by the bouncer? i think they found her rolled in a carpet in the local dump. the woman is the village who was killed my a migrant worker in her own home. i think she was hung by her own shower curtain. they found a guy in the local park lashed by the neck to the metal fence. werent sure if it was accidental.
the girl shot by a mugger in the LES. the aux. cops killed by NYC in a shootout.

i think you get my point....

Years (say ten) ago some were in bad financial shape which led to lax repars. I am sure some still are. But now we're held to a prety high standard by the city. I have a 6 unit townhouse on 161st that is constantly inspected by the city. The unit I have on 157th st is in great shape. The building has incredible apartments and is fully wired with security cameras that go directly to the local police station/fire dept. Als, it has keyless entry. My biggest complaint is the throwing of trash in the streets. That is truly annoying and something I hope changes very soon. If you go through the area youwill se a lot of scaffolding because the city initiative is to have all facade work fixed and genrally "pretty up" the area.

Let the flaming begin. DG156, no it wasn't her boyfriend. Eah, I hear you. I'm not saying that there isn't weird sh*t all over the city. What I am saying is that Columbia security around the main campus is very good - it's like having your own extra police force in addition to the NYC blues. Why not take advantage of that extra safety if you can? Obviously, this is just my POV.

no flaming at all. people need to live where they're comfortable. i am just confused by mom. her concern is understandable, but it sounds like the decision is made already. no sense in fretting now.

just so you guys are clear on this.....
the girl who was raped and tortured lived in the 140s near City College and not in the area patrolled by Columbia Security. I live by Columbia and the area does feel much safer than even the 150s by the Columbia Medical campus -- if she is moving close to it then it is probably fine. There is a shuttle bus to/from the campus and so it would be better for her to move up to the 160/70s

Hey Mom,

When your daughter is ready to move I can be of help. I have a newly renovated studio unit near 118th street 2 blocks east of Columbia University for $1300 @450 Sqft. Feel free to give me a call.

Steven Leon
New York Living Solutions

Mom, I agree with Grunty. I would advise my child to move into a smaller unit in the Columbia area. The extra patrols by campus police are meaningful in terms of real additional security and peace of mind. It will also be an advantage to be able to walk to campus. I have lived on 115th/ RSD and in the Heights, and the Columbia area is much better for many reasons....security, stores, restaurants, etc. Good luck!