Why do (some) realtors lie?

I'm specifically referring to unit 4G by the way (https://streeteasy.com/building/the-hit-factory/4g).

Joey42, They lie as no one complains to Licensing Board in case or rentals/coops and to AG in case of condo sales. Let us know if you complain.

BTW, while I haven't been inside the unit, most likely the doors are taller than 80" as they used 4 hinges. Ceiling height from what I can tell is 10' or so. Subzero 84"+ Cabinet on Top 12-18" + dropped ceilings 20-24".

in case or = in case of

They lie because they get rewarded for it and punished for telling the truth.

BTW Joey42 congratulations (NOT sarcasm) for figuring out the easiest way to rough calculate ceiling heights without actually visiting a unit. FWIW ceiling height is the most commonly misjudged measurement even when people are standing in the room.

PS every Subzero is 84" tall.

There is basically no punishment for realtors when they lie. If they were regulated like investment advisors, insurance salesmen, or medical professionals, the field would be a lot cleaner.

This board has a lot of threads about flat out lies on things like square footage.

The main concern of a realtor legally is that they don't get accused of discrimination. Otherwise anything goes. Caveat emptor.

What 30 said, times 1000. The advent of a ton of data has made this worse; if the broker on the last sale said an apartment was 1,300 sf, and your floorplan guy says it's 1,170, then your options are to lie OR to face a storm of protest from buyers who tell you you're doing a lousy job because you increased the PPSF in a flat market, and don't you know the market?
in addition to this accuracy point, which recurs *constantly,* there's an additional layer that in hustle and grind culture, if you don't constantly spout a stream of puffy best-best-best marketing, you're seen as somehow not energetic.

Looks like 10-foot-ceilings, the height of a basketball hoop, not 12 feet.

How many questionable claims in this one?
https://streeteasy.com/building/514-broadway-new_york/2gh?context%5Bcontroller%5D=%23%3CBuildingController%3A0x0000559ac71e4c88%3E&context%5Bcurrent_user%5D=1004028&hide_if_empty=true&section=sales&separate_sponsors=false

I haven't wrapped my head around the actual square footage there, nor the supposed 7' ceilings that look more like 6'. What I noticed is that it last sold for $2.9m in 2004. That's $4.5m today inflation-adjusted. It's on the market for $3.9. Say it sells at 3.8 and the realtors fees and taxes make that into a net of 3.5m. That's a $1m loss relative to inflation over 18 years. I thought NY home prices only go up?

How about that "skyline" view?

@300 - good catch on the subzero. I was thinking it was closer to 10' too just by looking at the pictures of the other rooms. Which is impressive on its own - 10' ceiling height is nothing to shrug at in NYC. So, I don't understand why this agent even felt a need to lie.

@30yrs - I definitely see your point. From a client's perspective though, it's really frustrating. Doctored pictures should be made illegal. Imagine traveling 4hrs to go check out a place only to get there and find out that they'd lied about everything. Yes, this actually happened.

Joey42,
How do you think it feels to be a broker who tells the truth and then gets shit on for it? Like listing the actual square footage from the Offering Plan while another broker lists another unit in the same building at a grossly
inflated number and then had buyers saying the unit is overpriced because it's smaller than the other unit.

30yrs, here’s an idea. Send said buyer the offering plan showing sq ft. Then say “If they’re telling you something different about information you can independently verify, who knows about the information you cannot.”

30yrs, here’s an idea. Send said buyer the offering plan showing sq ft. Then say “If they’re telling you something different about information you can independently verify, who knows about the information you cannot.”

The problem is that everyone bitches about real estate brokers, however very few people formally complain. The DOS and Attorney general take complaints very seriously.

If you're not part of the solution.....

https://dos.ny.gov/preliminary-statement-complaint-0

@theburkhardtgroup - saying people are 'bitching' is derogatory and a lazy interpretation of folks expressing their concern about a specific issue. I bet most people don't even realize this is something that can be reported, plus there's that moral angle where people don't want to put another person's livelihood in jeopardy over what most would consider a "white lie". Sure it's annoying, frustrating even, but is it something that an agent should likely lose their license over? I don't think many would think so.

Perhaps if those in the industry make an active attempt to discourage it, then it would be a less punitive way to slowly make the problem disappear. I don't know the answers and not sure about the best solution (balancing effectiveness against humanity), but I know it's a problem and I don't think bringing it up is 'bitching about real estate brokers'.

@30yrs_RE_20_in_REO - I can appreciate the challenge, but I think there's an opportunity for a person/company to distinguish themselves and their brand. And as @inonada suggested, since you have the offering plan, you can always share that (and even point it out in your listing that it's actual, instead of the generic disclaimer that many realtors abuse). When I was searching, for instance, in all the properties I looked at, only two actually measured up accurately. Most were so grossly inflated it was intellectually offensive.

If I were a realtor, I would honestly want to protect my brand. The start might be slow, but the longterm dividends are immeasurable. I'll always remember the two realtors whose listings were actually accurate. Personally, I've devised ways to (attempt to) spot listings with inflated specs, so chances of me wasting my time are minimal (although not completely erased). But for most people - many of whom travel long distances to view listings - it's actually really bad.

Joey, Curious what was the measurement methodology you used? Most condos in the last 10-15 years are measured from outside of exterior wall in.

"When I was searching, for instance, in all the properties I looked at, only two actually measured up accurately."

Joey, The only brand realtors protect is getting more listings. And a seller is just interested in whatever will get them a higher price. Buyers don't pay them. For condo sales, a vast majority of the listings (98-99%) have accurate square footage as per the offering plan.

And there are many buyers who do screw brokers representing them as in seeing 10 listings through a broker and then go direct to a listing they want to buy. Sometimes, they may do that with more than one broker. While it is legal, not all buyers are morally in the right place.

The only way to address this problem is buyer complaints which as you explained people do not want to do even against top brokers who may be making $1mm plus a year.

The deeper philosophical question here is then, why do people lie? It's certainly not limited to real estate agents. Is there anyone on this board who hasn't ever lied?

My point was for the more egregious misrepresentations there is a path, and it's certainly easy enough to find if you've been wronged by a simple Google search. I think you're really underestimating most buyers/sellers by thinking they can't figure out how to make a complaint.

As someone who's worked in this industry for over 30 years I would suggest this, and in most cases it will get results.

For the most egregious trespasses, bring those complaints to the department of State. If you do a search you'll find there are plenty of ongoing cases in the courts of real estate brokers being sued by buyers/sellers.

For misrepresentations regarding a listing, perhaps an email or phone call to the brokers manager or the real estate board of New York. This will put the agent on notice they can't get away with fudging certain elements of the property.

But if you don't do anything people will be people.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

Let me add another example of buyer's bitching: They will add up square footage using room dimensions ignoring even interior walls not to mention any allowance for exterior walls (essentially "carpet area" measurement method) and then compare to price per sq ft using their calculated square footage to market averages which are calculated using stated square footage.

Joey, as someone who got into this business with the aim of meeting cool clients as much as the aim of making money (and so I do a more-intensive service, lower-volume business), I can assure you that the longterm dividends of measuring twice and cutting once are, unfortunately, quite measurable.

Most of my business comes in through referrals from past clients, which is something that I'm very grateful for, but for every one who says "I used her, you'd be in great hands, don't use anybody else" there's someone who says, "yes but I just got married, and my spouse wants us to use broker X ...who is on TV/has a larger team and therefore must be better/will make a movie of the space jumping around in it and will disclose the flaws later in the process." I wish that you, as someone who feels burned by that type of broker, would complain about it in a way that has some actual teeth, but in the meantime, sellers do hear what they want to hear, and they like sizzle.

Joey, Look at the fridge pix in this. It seems there is 2 foot space on top of fridge before the dropped ceilings. So the doors are mostly likely 8' tall and ceilings are most likely 11 foot as mentioned in several listings.
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-hit-factory/4e

Do realtors ever get fined or banned? There's that Elliman guy who squatted in some old lady's apartment, but that wasn't a professional fine. I can say with certainty that anyone promoting securities like realtors promote sq footages would quickly be answering questions from the SEC. I have never seen a realtor face such consequences

You mean the old lady who was renting out her rent controlled/stabilized apartment at supposedly market rate.

https://dos.ny.gov/legal-memorandum-li01-discipline-real-estate-brokers-and-salespersons-untrustworthy-conduct

The ceilings are closer to 10’ than 11’.

NYS DOS doesn't watch Reality Television or social media.

Nada, How so?
>>The ceilings are closer to 10’ than 11’.

300_mercer - For https://streeteasy.com/building/the-hit-factory/4e, I don't really see 11'. If you look at the entrance door area, you'll see that the area uses the full height. If that door is 84" (roughly the same height as the subzero), then even the most generous estimate puts the ceiling height at around 10'.

I also tried to gauge the height using the sofa height instead. The standard sofa height is 33"; I looked up sofas similar to the one pictured in that listing and they were pretty much all around 33"-35". Just guessing roughly, 3.5 of those sofas stacked on top of each other will hit the ceiling (or pretty close to it). Which puts the height from the floor to the ceiling at roughly around 122.5" give or take a few inches. That comes up to just about 10' like we guessed earlier).

As per your question about how I measured, I simply compared the floorplan with the interior measurement in the units. They were within range with less than a foot off, which accounts for the exterior wall space. I was really appreciative that the floorplan I'd seen was truly representative of the apt.

Granted that NYC is very dense, I guess a realtor can play the numbers game. For how long, I don't know. Because the only thing that spreads faster than a lie is bad reputation. If the word gets out that a particular agent is in the habit of lying about listings, chances are, people will steer clear. I don't see Buyers' amoral acts as justification for a broker misrepresenting listings. There is but one professional in that relationship.

@theburkhardtgroup I think when people are in the market to buy, they are often so consumed by their goal that they don't see fit (or care to) bestow energy on seeking punitive measures for a dishonest broker. As you well know, buying a home is a very emotional thing (especially, if it's the first home, as it is for most people), so it's unlikely that people would want to compound that by veering off to go after a lying broker.

I don't have any actual numbers to back this up, but I feel like people are more likely to report egregious things like discrimination than to report an agent who 're-imagines' the dimensions of an apt. Perhaps you know, but I haven't seen or heard of a case where a broker was penalized for lying about the dimensions of an apt. Which goes to prove all I'm saying: buyers are unlikely to commit effort to reporting a broker for lying about the dimensions of an apt, particularly when they're still in the process of shopping/buying.

@front_porch I see how taking the moral high road is not necessarily the crowd puller. But I think I look at this from a short-term gain vs long-term gain perspective. In the short-term, the flashes in the pan will look like they're ahead, but soon enough, reputation outpaces them and the more reliable brokers like you become the go-to.

Joey, 4 hinges 8' door.

The developer or contractor could become really generous and put 4 hinges on a 7 foot door but it is unlikely.

https://www.hingeoutlet.com/blogs/news/do-i-need-2-or-3-hinges-1

https://www.lowes.com/n/buying-guide/hinge-buying-guide

Make me wonder where this statement comes from? Actual knowledge or just assumption.

"The doors in the unit are standard, which puts them at 36" by 80". "

"Make me wonder where this statement comes from? Actual knowledge or just assumption."

@300_mercer - Which part of the statement are you asking about? That standard door dimensions are 36" by 80" or that I said the doors in the unit are standard? The former is a fact; the latter I was clearly just guessing since I haven't actually seen the unit in person.

I'm curious: do you think those doors are one foot taller than the subzero? Because subzeros are 7' (84") as we've established. So for those doors to be 8', they'd have to be one full foot taller than the fridge. The pictures don't suggest that extrapolation.

The good news, the majority of listings in the RLS contain accurate information. So what's the answer to cleaning up the others? Make an inquiry, point it out to the agent, get their perspective. Some may even be thankful and correct the error. I know I would be.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

@joey I agreed with you when I started in this business a dozen years ago, and I am still the go-to for my "tribe" (which thankfully includes some successful executives and some award-winners) but it has not kept me from being outpaced by many brokers using the techniques you are complaining about.

I still enjoy doing what I do (especially working with co-op buyers, and especially when I do something for my clients no one else could do) but it's difficult to be a character actor in a world full of models.

Joey, Yes, If I were to bet on the door height from the pictures alone, it would be on 8 foot tall vs 7 foot.

"BTW, while I haven't been inside the unit, most likely the doors are taller than 80" as they used 4 hinges. Ceiling height from what I can tell is 10' or so. Subzero 84"+ Cabinet on Top 12-18" + dropped ceilings 20-24"."

Actually the kitchen yes, but if you look in that same pic at the front door, it looks like the ceiling height rises another 2 ft for living room and bedroom.

With no political connections to this listing to further affect a ruling, I think Snopes would call this technically true. :)

Ha. That is what I am accounting for in “dropped ceilings” 20-24”

@front_porch when you say "outpaced", do you mean in terms of closed deals? If so, I wonder how. Because I struggle to imagine how buyers settle for less-than (what was advertised to them). I mean, if as a buyer I'm expecting 12' ceilings and I get there to find out the height is actually 11.5' or even 11', I can maybe overlook that. But if I get there and I'm looking at 9' or 10' ceilings, that'd be significant enough for me to walk.

@300_mercer yes, so this makes this at most 10' ceiling height. 12' as claimed by the listing is a huge stretch.

Would you take this (it is a rental) or more than 600 sq ft overstatement for a sale? See other thread on 200 East 84th.

You did 300.

My reading comprehension sucks on small screens with my intra day reading vision changes at this age.

@300_mercer just saw the listing. But why??? It just beats me hollow. Not like people won't find out once they actually view the place, even if they didn't figure it out beforehand.

I feel bad for agents who have legitimate 1400SF 2 bedrooms in this neighborhood and list them on StreetEasy as the true SF who will have potential customers not contact them "because they need at least 1800SF" after seeing this listing.

Every salesman engages in puffery. Some puff more than others

Joey, Looking at your other post. Were you particularly ticked off by the ceiling height misstatement by a foot or so (likely 11 vs 12 stated) as you wanted to add a temporary loft in a rental?

@300_mercer - Oh no, this thread is totally unrelated... lol. This was way before I found that unit in the other post. My lamentation here was based off of my experience in shopping around (to buy, not rent).

Why do they lie?

.... Perhaps ... because they can???

But they do have opposable thumbs.