for $40M, both 6300SF, which do you prefer?
Started by Rinette
about 1 year ago
Posts: 483
Member since: Dec 2016
Discussion about
this 6 year old resale: https://streeteasy.com/building/551-west-21st-street-new_york/ph19b, featured in the Wall Street Journal https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/a-west-chelsea-condo-is-looking-to-join-downtown-manhattans-penthouse-craze-c573231b or newer on the UWS: https://streeteasy.com/building/200-amsterdam-avenue-new_york/ph1
They're both hideous but if I had to choose I'd go for the UWS.
At these sorts of price points, it’s hard to find anything that is not hideous. If you know of any, please LMK.
Ignoring the sticker price, I like both. 21st seems a little cut-off from everything. I have been to 551 West 21st. The apartment finishes are very nice with generous use of wood for doorways. However, lobby design was getting a bit wornout due to the type of materials used. So UWS for me largely due to location.
well, how about this one, assume you can knock $10M off the price, maybe by telling the seller you don't want the creepy painting of your grandmother mother-in-law from Denmark in the living room: https://streeteasy.com/building/100-vandam/20a?featured=1
plus the benefit of living in a 50/50 rental building: https://streeteasy.com/talk/discussion/48114-100-vandam-going-rental-now
alternatively, how about all this https://streeteasy.com/building/200-east-59th-street-new_york/ph3334 which comes with terrace space on three levels , all overlooking traffic https://streeteasy.com/talk/discussion/48119-this-building-went-through-some-deep-cuts
To me, 100 Vandam is the worst of the lot.
200 East 59th needs a little warmth. The design is way too cold but the outdoor space is beautiful.
While there aren't that many pictures, I like 200 Amsterdam overall. That area has a lot of amenities and proximity to the Central Park.
or this: https://streeteasy.com/sale/772508 available with THREE panic rooms for someone truly part of the global elite. Plus a multi-million dollar Crestron system
Who the hell needs 3 panic rooms in a doorman building on the UWS?
Just live on a 40 acre estate in westchester/CT/NJ and take a blade in.
I really don't understand this flavor of "living in the city".
What is a panic room?
For me, no stairs in an apartment is a huge plus. So no duplexes or triplexes. Location also important - at this price point something that is far from everything is a no go. Outdoor space is really nice to have as well.
Finishes and appliances I assume could all be adjusted inexpensively relative to price of the apartment, so not really focused on that.
I would also skip anything with too many “smart home” features. I don’t need lights and fridge and microwave and thermostat all connecting to wifi and introducing cyber vulnerabilities into my home. Or issues with manufacturer support for the current version down the line.
Hats off, Rinette. What a turd…. Hot tub in the middle of the living room is icing on the cake. It was bad enough to begin with, trying to make the space into something it’s not. But I guess that’s so over the top that it maybe improves it? I dunno, I’m so confused.
FWIW, I generally dislike all these smart home features. Mostly, they are ancient shit that can all be replaced by Apple Home and whatnot with 10x the convenience, if you’re remotely competent. I’m always fascinated by the amount of heat generated by the “smart home” closets.
Other pet peeves:
- Built in TVs and spaces customized for them.
- Ceiling and other built in speakers, which are invariably shite. Only one I ever saw that was acceptable. Sound quality was minimally acceptable, but the key feature was that it was imperceptibly blended with white paint.
- Wall switches that control nothing.
- Wall switches that control nothing.
Haha I have a couple of those. They are so annoying. But my apartment was not 40M. :)
On smart home stuff… Bought some baby gadgets recently that don’t work if you do not connect appliances to the wifi. Can only be controlled from your phone. Has no physical displays or buttons. So infuriating. You purchase a thing, but it doesn’t work without the manufacturer getting in the middle and collecting your data via some app. It’s going back. My partner wouldn’t even consider keeping any of it on principle (and I agree - nothing in my house except maybe baby monitor needs to be “smart”).
My company policy prohibits having work-related conversations anywhere near Alexa. Guess some equally paranoid people are working in the IT department.
I thought smart home is where you have a knob or button for everything and any issues are contained to the device/equipment operated by that button.
@300 your version of smart home, I would sign up for.
That’s not the majority of products out there. If any of the devices are connected to your wifi, someone could break into your home network by hacking a lightbulb or whatever.
I don't enable the wifi connection on the device or appliances. For example, there are dishwashers with wifi. Who the hell needs that? I never let them connect them to wifi. Ring doorbell with recorded wifi camera and remote activated lock (you can take out the battery in the lock to disable wi-fi remote opening) I would sign up for as it is incredibily useful for a standalone home and the camera in fact adds to the security. Wifi music is fine. Of course, computer is connected to wi-fi leaving hackers more than enough opportunity to do damage to your finacinal info.
Imagine a hacker connecting to your dishwasher and running the sanitize cycle when your grandma's lead crystal is in the washer, and soon we have an Agatha Christie novel.
One of the lots that came up at auction a few years ago came out of a major 5th Ave apartment (better floorplan than any in this thread, yet is still on the market, and now for less than $40m) -- it was all the servant call buttons which had been strategically placed around the apartment so that the lady and gentleman of the house didn't need to actually get up and adjust the lights, drapes, or temperature.
I would suggest that if you're doing any of those things in a 40m apartment, you're doing it wrong.
I get not having servants. My issue is trouble-shooting and complexity more than hacking. For example, as long as there is switch to control each bedroom curtains separately, it is ok. Ideally need manual back up as the electronic controls may mal-function.
Absence of a manual backup is super common now and is a no go. Imagine any malfunction in the program, or you lose your iphone, or the drapes company is out of business and stops support for the product… etc.
Hacking is more of a real threat than people commenting in this thread might realize. The drapes or lightbulbs companies are not hiring top notch cybersecurity talent. And access to wifi gives all these devices access to you other devices. Hacking is very profitable and is forecasted to grow a lot in the near future. If you want to control stuff from your phone, at least opt for a bluetooth connection to the device, instead of a wifi connection.
A friend of mine had a ransomware attack on a personal computer few years ago. It was really not fun, he lost a whole lot of personal data as he was not willing/able to pay half a million dollars. Furthermore, criminals out there now have his personal data and he has to be checking for identity theft constantly…
Quantum technology is here and it takes no time to break your password with a quantum computer. There are very few real life applications of quantum computers and breaking your passwords is the top one.
Check out this article:
https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/cyber-attacks-more-likely-to-bring-down-f-35-jets-than-missiles
I guess I have to secure my computer and home network first.
The benefit of buying in a 50/50 rental building? Anyone who buys into that deal structure is a moron.
or this penthouse furnished with the couches from Bob's
https://streeteasy.com/building/30-park-place-new_york/ph81
but only 5400 sq ft.
>>My company policy prohibits having work-related conversations anywhere near Alexa. Guess some equally paranoid people are working in the IT department.<<
We don't even own an Alexa for this very reason.
or https://streeteasy.com/sale/1613906
how about this, nice outdoor pool
https://streeteasy.com/building/50-united-nations-plaza/dph42
What not even wide plank floor for this price? Shiny white cabinets and pull-out range hood!! Doors and casings look cheapo. Of course that area is anti-cool.
I don’t care for the neighborhood either, but “whatev” on the finishes. I’m not marrying it, just looking for a little tossle at a 1% cap rate:
https://streeteasy.com/building/50-united-nations-plaza/ph4243
The pool does seem fun, albeit likely impractical.
For those who haven’t been playing along at home, this one is now in its 9th year of sale with a 43% price cut that seems stuck for the past 5 years:
https://streeteasy.com/building/50-united-nations-plaza/dph4243
At these price points I prefer a private pool
https://streeteasy.com/building/704-broadway-new_york/ph?https://streeteasy.com/building/704-broadway-new_york/ph?
That is pretty bad location for that price.
https://www.businessinsider.com/house-of-the-day-ron-burkles-triplex-penthouse-2015-1
Yeah, I’m not seeing that one happening for $32M.
I do think there’s a subgenre of RE at these sorts of price points. The owner no longer uses the residence and “doesn’t have to sell”, but then few are buying.
Here’s another one:
https://streeteasy.com/building/18-gramercy-park/ph
Paid $42m in 2013. Why? I dunno. Been trying to get rid of it since 2015 — 9 years ago! I’m just not seeing it happening. He doesn’t have to sell, but no one wants to buy either.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiesola/2016/07/15/peek-inside-a-self-made-billionaires-47-5m-penthouse/amp/
Another one, now in its 4th year of sale:
https://streeteasy.com/building/78-irving-place-new_york/ph
Or including a carriage house:
https://streeteasy.com/building/78-irving-place-new_york/carriageph
When you see people saying we need to let developers build WTF they want to because of the housing shortage, remember that what they really want to build is more if these.
That all was acquired in late 2017 with a $33.5M price tag, with $27.5M going to what would be combined into a larger PH. Probably spent a year renovating, and then perhaps a year using it before decamping to elsewhere. That’s a whole lotta effort for not a whole lotta living. Should’ve gone with a WeLive.
>> When you see people saying we need to let developers build WTF they want to because of the housing shortage, remember that what they really want to build is more if these.
Can you blame them so long as the buyers were buying? I do wonder what is the best way of addressing the issue of ghost apartments. The increased mansion tax helped. But I think making all owners statutory residents for the purposes of income tax would be more effective.
FWIW, I don’t think forcing developers to build X would be very effective. People can/will still combine the existing housing stock. It’s not like 78 Irving was new dev. They combined 3 already generously-sized apartments and used it for 1 out of 7 years.
They are paying real estate taxes and not using services. A lot of money went into nyc economy when these were built. Why would you want to address that?
I do wonder what is the best way of addressing the issue of ghost apartments.
Forgot to add, if it weren’t for these really expensive ultra-luxury apartments, nothing in that location will likely be built and existing structures would have stayed. Did the developers over build these, of course. But NYC’s economy is a net gainer in addition to Nada getting near free rent after paying for cc and taxes.
"Can you blame them so long as the buyers were buying?"
Not at all. But when I see people arguing that developers should be able to get rid of statutory tenants in old, small apartment buildings because it's standing in the way of "solving the housing shortage," and what we really see is no meaningful increase in the number of units in what replaces them, just big, expensive, mostly unused boxes, you know I'm going to call BS.
Look at https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2023/07/16/madison-realty-capitals-condo-project-hits-snag-amid-cracking-building-crisis/
I think bifurcated zoning is one solution. If a developer was to build luxury housing, they get the old FAR. If they build 100% affordable housing they get X times more FAR. I don't think it's too difficult to solve for X so they make more money building affordable.
Let's look at an example of what a good deal in was for NYC to give a tax break to build a really tall, really expensive bullion Billionaires Row.
https://ny.curbed.com/2015/7/15/9940480/one57s-tax-breaks-led-to-a-paltry-number-of-affordable-units
300, I have indeed been a beneficiary of the investment and ghost apartment trend. If you include transaction costs and capital losses to the equation, people have been lending me their apartments for free going on a decade now. And the decade before, for a song. And all the while, I’ve effectively been using that free/cheap capital to make bank elsewhere.
Nevertheless, in a city with continuous housing scarcity, I find the waste bothersome from a societal perspective. Taken to the extreme, I’d rather see existing structures staying and occupied rather than being replaced with fully empty space.
Perhaps we should let capitalism work itself out, leaving long-term deterrence to the ignominy of lost money and opportunity. But this is RE, which is basically source #1 for state & local political contributions. “Please give me 421 tax breaks and expanded FAR so I can build empty apartments, because it benefits the NYC economy” is a bit disingenuous when the beneficiary in the NYC economy is “me”. Perhaps policy can direct those efforts towards something more useful than empty apartments by disincentivizing them.
I should also say that this is not solely a matter of new dev. There is plenty of old dev space that sits continually empty.
>> They are paying real estate taxes and not using services.
So what? Plenty of wealthy residents are paying even more income tax while “not using services”. Unless police & fire depts stop showing up at non-resident homes, property rights stop being enforced, water stops being delivered, and garbage & sewage stops being removed, they’re using services. Are the taxes paid commensurate with the services received? No. Welcome to Taxation 101.
Perhaps increasing the difference between resident vs non-resident property tax rates would be a move in the right direction.
Primary residences already get 20 percent discount if not bought via LLC or rented out.
Think of how many staff is being employed and construction workers used to build.
While capitalism allocation of resources is not perfect but it is better than alternatives.
NYC issue is not a lack of housing but a lack of lower priced housing where people want to live. And at a lot of place where people don’t want to live, schools are pretty bad. It is a chicken or egg situation.
An example of where more $1000-1200 per sq ft housing can be built is Dutch kills. 21st street and 39th ave north of public housing. But there is not much building despite land being rather cheap in that area. NYC has plenty of other such locations. Why? Building in NYC is expensive - building code, DOB, safety regulations, and of course expensive labor.
Some more example of available/unused spaces are in Bedstuy and Bushwick. But very little development of scale there due to a lack of demand at prices which will incentivize someone to build.
Gowanus rentals are being built full steam.
The point I am making is there is plenty of space to build but there isn’t enough demand after all in cost to build in many areas.
The concept that 421a and similar tax breaks are necessary in order to build is total BS. When the program was enacted it was necessary because the city was trying to sell vacant lots for $1 and still couldn't get anyone to build on them. Today all these programs do is increase the price developers pay to speculators for land. Since money is fungible there is no difference between a higher price with a tax abatement and a lower price without one.
>> Primary residences already get 20 percent discount if not bought via LLC or rented out.
Translation: non-residents are paying 25% more property taxes. Why not bump it up some and use the proceeds to decrease income tax for residents? Presumably, there would be a decrease in non-resident demand offset by an increase in resident demand. Some because residents have more money and some because fewer residents leave to flee taxes.
If you think ultra-lux drives building, you can direct the income tax benefit to such residents. A $30M apt may yield $150K in property taxes, but $10M+ income residents buying such properties yield $1.5M+ in income tax.
Obviously, one can take this too far. But based on the “lights at night” measure, the 25% bump has not done anything.
Ha.. "If you think ultra-lux drives building, you can direct the income tax benefit to such residents. A $30M apt may yield $150K in property taxes, but $10M+ income residents buying such properties yield $1.5M+ in income tax."
The city has been losing very wealthly residents for a long time and the taxes associated but in NYC/NYS there is always a political desire to tax the rich more. Ultra-luxury properties are generally taxed a lot less as percentage of MV vs say $1000-1200 sq ft coop or condo.
Rationalizing NYC real estate taxes with direct linkage to MV / services used is much better way for better allocation of resources. That hasn't happened despite several proposals and reports. That would mean many parts/type of buildings of BK and Queens will go up along with Ultra-luxury. Taxes for most buildings/houses will not go down as the city will figure out a way to spend the extra revenue and put up more people for free in hotels.
If it were to be only upto me, I would split budget (expenses and collections; DOE, NYPD, everything) by county as a starter which is more or less how suburbs do it - I know it is not going to happen and it is a futile debate but one can dream.
Who is this apartment for?
https://streeteasy.com/building/olympic-tower/ph-45
https://photos.zillowstatic.com/fp/b83b577a2b1d13bb323b933f24fb133a-se_extra_large_1500_800.webp
Somebody who has lots of money and needs lots of bedrooms for the kids, servants, groupies, or storing lots of stuff?
Looks like a combination.
really strange access to some of the bathrooms
of the 2 original listings, one had a chop, and one was delisted
$40 million, now $35 million at 100 Vandam
https://streeteasy.com/building/100-vandam/sale/1675799?
nothing in this building for $40 million, what should the developer do?
https://streeteasy.com/building/sutton-tower/ph80?showcase=1
https://streeteasy.com/building/sutton-tower/ph70?showcase=1