Over 8,000 Manhattan Listings!

I have a serious question. What motivated you to make this post? Its all stuff that's been mentioned by you (and others) many many times. You just woke up this morning and said to yourself "I'm going to make a summary post as a service to the board?"

ccdevi, did you sleep through yesterday, or through the last 8 years?

ha

Great point Steve. Excellent post. Sorry that the brokers don't care to hear the news.

It's just the truth. Stop whining and deal with it.

Dont forget WFC and US Bancorp( Warren Buffetts bank) these guys also got the mess right.

I read somewhere yesterday that there has been 10 years worth of consolidation in the financial services sector in 10 days. It's true. The biggest change is 3 "national" banks that will be closely regulated for risk. There will be a 4th as Wells Fargo picks up a few regionals, perhaps a 5th if US Bank does the same. And it will be an entirely new world.

The government has basically taken over the entire banking system, moved it to DC and Charlotte. We will definitely recover recent stock-market losses, which were caused by fear. The world is not coming to an end - it is unrealistic that our stock markets should have fallen 30% or in some cases more when we haven't seen a 30% fall in income or production. All that we have is a Ponzi Scheme falling apart, as it must. Our whole housing sector was treated like it was Amway.

Sky is falling group number 2 meet up and have fun flirting with each other by telling each other what you want to hear. the problem is that you want the market to tank so bad that it's bound to fail to meet you crazy expectations...

Sure, it's human nature to state the facts most conveniently to fit your case.

But you just have to acknowledge the craziness (and unsustainability) of prices increasing 50% over about a 4-year period (roughly 2002-2006) in lots of areas.

And sure, there's still bulls and bears fighting, but the bulls have moved the goalposts closer. They used to insist 1) that prices will still keep rising nicely, if less modestly than at the peak. Then the argument switched to, 2) well, certainly Manhattan real estate won't lose value. Now it's, 3) sure, prices will weaken, but only to 2002 levels, pre-boom. They surely can't go any lower than that.

Well, fine. Maybe scenario number 3 is right. But too many dollars chasing too few goods is the basic definition of inflation, and when that scenario unwinds, the correction can be ugly. And think what you want about the intrinsic value of real estate, the big issue for now is that mortgage financing, like all credit markets, has gotten much scarcer. (Sure, there will always be some cash buyers, but most buyers depend on some sort of financing.)

"the problem is that you want the market to tank so bad that it's bound to fail to meet you crazy expectations..."

Who said "want"? "Expect" is a better word.

"Maybe scenario number 3 is right"

I think it is - just 2002 prices are 50% or more below where we are today.

I will say you "want the market to tank", but I don't blame you. If I were a renter, I would want prices to tank, mostly so I could move to the kind of apartment that you really can't rent.

"mostly so I could move to the kind of apartment that you really can't rent."

Which one would that be? The one that costs $10,000 a month to buy and $4,000 to rent?

Who would want to buy such a thing?

Just so people know:

Steve's prediction on Friday:

"If a plan is not passed by this weekend - and maybe by today - the Dow will be at 5,000 on Monday."

Since the plan wasn't passed by Friday or by this past weekend, your prediction that the Dow would be at 5,000 on Monday was completely inaccurate.

Can you admit that you were wrong yet?

granted, steve has some wild predictions, and likes to write on everything that backs up his case, but he has been one of the people to understand the crisis early on. There are STILL people out there in denial, even after all this. Amazes me. Some of the conversations I get into with fellow brokers in the field, are utterly clueless

"Which one would that be? The one that costs $10,000 a month to buy and $4,000 to rent?"

No - it would be the one that is not available for rent, only for purchase. The one you can finally call home!

Like many others, I generally agree that rent/cost to own ratio is out of whack. The extent of the discrepancy is up for debate due to a number of assumptions and factors, both tangible and intangible. There are many co-ops / condos in Manhattan that have highly limited rental comps (e.g. pre-war park ave classic-six apts). So, when the ratio falls into an acceptable range, you will have many more options and hopefully find something you truly love! So, I can understand why you would want prices to fall. That's all.

Right on UD. The hypocrisy here is kind of funny.

"Sky is falling group number 2 meet up and have fun flirting with each other by telling each other what you want to hear. the problem is that you want the market to tank so bad that it's bound to fail to meet you crazy expectations..."

I knew it. After years of bulls say "no, no, you are wrong and stupid, it will never decline", their standard response is now "yes, its declining, but you can't tell me exactly how much, so you are stupid".

Steve may not have predicted every part exactly right, but he went against the grain and has since been vindicated. His S&P predictions were a little nutty, but come on folks, we hit almost a 30% decline in S&P already, and his old "50% Manhattan decline" call isn't looking so crazy anymore...

The guy warned a LOT of people about a MAJOR move and was right... so all the bulls have left is to pick at each word.

Sorry, but Steve has been right...

> Can you admit that you were wrong yet?

There are a good 100 bears on this board who would need to go first...

Sorry... there are a good 100 BULLS on this board who would need to go first...

whatever they call themselves, redeemed, converted, whatever... but you know who you are..

I think the reason this particular thread provoked such ire might be that kgg already has an ongoing thread that's tracking the inventory numbers:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/4863-nyc-sales-inventory-090108

This thread comes across as knife-twisting, whether Stevejhx meant it that way or not.

Steve and dco have been right about some pretty crazy stuff. They have won the battle (though the outcome of the war is still very much in doubt). That doesn't mean they have to celebrate like punks. As a wise running back once said, "When you reach the end zone, act like you expected to get there, and you expect to be back."

Steve has a tendency to speak in hyperbole's and to repeat the same info over and over again. But sadly (not for him as a person) he tends to be spot on if you can get past the verbiage

When I began reading StreetEasy he angered me as I was preparing my apartment to sell. Then it was on the market. It was on the market for awhile and went into contract just two months ago. The closing will be soon--it's a coop

I put it on the market as I knew that whatever goes up must go down and it seemed over do. I freelance so I can work wherever there's a modem

I learned not to take Steve verbatim but to listen to his ideas. Yesterday we didn't go down to 5,000. However 777 points is maybe the millennium equivalent of that

i think Steve doesn't want the marke--either real estate or stock--to tank as that will be horrible for everyone of us. I hope it doesn't and I'm leaving.

I think these are very sad times for New York and for the country

If Rufus is reading--I love NY more than I could love any other place and will be back every four to eight weeks. I have lived in Manhattan since my early 20's and it's time to try someplace very different

Yesterday I read a comparison to 9/11 and as a New Yorker was personally offended. But I understand what the person meant.

Nobody knows what's happening. This is uncharted water--I have made a very good living as an investor that has allowed me to freelance, travel and basically do what I want.

I know I sold just in time. But I was very negotiable. I could afford to be as "it's just me" and I don't have a mortgage

Steve I wish you wouldn't speak in absolutes. Otherwise you would be great :)

"I knew it. After years of bulls say "no, no, you are wrong and stupid, it will never decline", their standard response is now "yes, its declining, but you can't tell me exactly how much, so you are stupid"."

Eddie, your hang-up on this mythical "bears" vs "bulls" battle is a bit childish. No credible posters here ever said what you placed in quotation marks there, unless you count petrfitz among that group.

Anyway, back to what this thread is supposedly about - the rising inventory is definitely a positive sign for patient buyers. Anyone out there want to comment on their experience with the quality of what's out there? I have seen quite a few listings being pulled off the market, though obviously the new listings are well outpacing this trend.

Places that were asking 1.7 are now hoping (begging) for 1.3. Do the math. If you do not realize it is coming down you are delusional.

jadedinNY - well said.

Steve - part of your motivation to be on this board is to have your opinions heard. it must be, otherwise you wouldn't post. in my mind, admitting you were wrong on this whole dow thing would go a ways toward bolstering your credibility - if nothing else, that you can admit it when your wrong. and doing that would probably make others more likely to listen to what you have to say. just a thought.

"Since the plan wasn't passed by Friday or by this past weekend, your prediction that the Dow would be at 5,000 on Monday was completely inaccurate."

I thought I said 6,000, but maybe not. 777 was a good start - being kept high because of the perception that something has to pass Congress. Cramer predicts 8,000 if we don't get a bailout. If we don't get a bailout there will be another great depression.

"Some of the conversations I get into with fellow brokers in the field, are utterly clueless."

You're right, UD - look at the listings. I go back to my South Beach days, there are still people trying to sell years later and they won't lower their prices. So be it. Let them hold on and on and on.

"They have won the battle." Actually, no, because I've lost money on the stock market. Being liquid, however, I should gain most if not all of it back in 6 months to a year.

What I didn't predict was the utter incompetence of this administration - getting rid of the uptick rule, ignoring naked shorting, letting Lehman go bankrupt, seizing Freddie and Fannie and wiping out the preferred shareholders. So much could have been done to avoid this debacle - had Lehman not gone under we wouldn't be where we are today.

"Steve doesn't want the market--either real estate or stock--to tank"

The real estate market must come down to earth - it's not that I want it to fall, it's that it must fall. International stock markets - including the US - are vastly oversold right now. Things just aren't that bad. The problem is that nobody will lend money because there is no transparency, and markets only work when they're transparent. That is what's causing all of this.

"Steve I wish you wouldn't speak in absolutes. Otherwise you would be great."

Well, we all have our shortcomings.

"I have a serious question. What motivated you to make this post?"

You are so ungrateful, ccdevi. Steve is on here, doing you a favor by posting a few dozen wake-up calls/day for free, and you are asking him silly stuff like that? Where do you get off!? He could have been charging you 12 cents/word for his opinions, for god's sake!

"Cramer predicts 8,000 if we don't get a bailout."

Cramer is wrong on everything, so I predict Dow at 14,000 if we don't get a bail-out.

"International stock markets - including the US - are vastly oversold right now."

I think everyone should buy 2x BRIC funds on margin. You will see that downpayment triple in the next 6 months.

Steve - I am pretty sure that I didn't see you admit that you were wrong.

I find this behavior interesting because of how vicious and rigid you can be going after others for what they say. I have been consistent in saying that I think you are a smart guy (and you are), but your inability to admit that you were wrong about something, however small, appears to really be a stumbling block for you.

Steve I understood what you meant. Most of us have lost money in the stock market. To try and understand what's been happening takes a prophet and I don't know any.

You become so defensive when you have good thoughts. Certainly the most prescient of anybody who comments in StreetEasy. I look forward to your posts--I just discount the hyperbole. And yes we all have our faults so...I wouldn't admit I was wrong about the Dow going down to 5,000--as we both said 777 points is a good beginning. You have made many good calls--I would admit when I'm wrong about most other things as it would add so much to your credibility.

This admin is a tragedy. I do know stock brokers who will be voting Democratic for the first time in their lives.

Of course things have to fall. The question is what and by how much. There has to be a return to reality. Your paragraph on the utter incompetence of the admin is brilliant and says what most of us feel

SpecialK--thank you

"vicious and rigid"

Really? Rigid maybe, but vicious?

"I think everyone should buy 2x BRIC funds on margin"

Just China for the time being.

Haha!

It's funny! See how he'll talk around the issue, alter the focus of the post or just change the subject....anything to not admit he was wrong.

Being wrong is not a big deal. It's how you learn and grow. That is the whole upside to being wrong about something. You learn where you went off-course and then you can improve.

> No credible posters here ever said what you placed in quotation marks there,

"we never said that. ok, we did, but those people weren't credible".

Seems like a whole lot of folks are left without much credibility now a few months in to the panic...

> Steve has a tendency to speak in hyperbole's and to repeat the same info over and over again. But
> sadly (not for him as a person) he tends to be spot on if you can get past the verbiage

Well, if you are talking about someone with the balls to stand up against the current, you are likely talking about someone who is going to repeat themselves....

It is ironic that the tide has changed from "steve doesn't know what he's talking about" to "ok, steve called it, but he's annoying in doing so".

I think that makes it about official for Steve to do a victory lap.

;-)

Oh, and as far as the imcompetence of this administration, I second that as well! You would be hard-pressed to be as wrong about so many important issues (economy, Iraq, healthcare, the environment, social security, it goes on and on and on really) as this administartion has been. History will not treat W kindly.

I guess they finally found a president that makes Nixon look like less of a sleazy criminal and who also makes Hoover look like less of an incompetent boob. I really never thought either of thoise things could happen, let alone be attributed the same man.

W, thanks for the giant mess, and don't let the door hit you in your a** on the way out...

"anything to not admit he was wrong"

Wow, waverly,that's weird. Did I say that the Dow wasn't at 5,000 (or 6,000, whatever)? Yes. What more do you want? I also said that it fell 777 yesterday and there is hope that the deal will get done on Wednesday, which props up prices. Were the deal entirely dead, we'd be down another 2,000 today.

"I do know stock brokers who will be voting Democratic for the first time in their lives."

I don't think I've voted a straight Democratic ticket ever, and I wasn't going to vote for Obama because I don't like him, but ANYTHING is better than more-of-the-same McCain and his sidekick, Sarah Tonto.

She is unbelievable. She can see Russia from her living room. I can see Jersey from mine. Honestly, which is more dangerous?

waverly,

I agree the administration is incompetent, however the truth is that EVERYONE is to blame for the current mess

- GREED
- Greenspan for keeping rates too low
- Wall Street for creating the securities
- homeowners looking to flip
- TV shows hyping up flipping
- appraisiers faking the values of homes
- realtors telling everyne to buy now or be priced out forever
- mortgage brokers for allowing people to buy homes they clearly could not afford
- congress for sitting by and allowing it to happen
- democrats for pushing homes to low incomes via fannie/freddie and ignoring whether they could afford
- republicans for lnot being more forceful with regulation

c'mon EVERYONE is to blame! excepy those who were prudent with their money/savings and could smell the BS prices of homes escalating

Actually, you said, "I thought I said 6,000, but maybe not." That's not quite the same thing, which sort of proves my point of talking around things.

Either way, I think you provide a lot of excellent insight here and you shouldn't get worked up or defensive about being wrong sometimes.

I also agree with you that we are on the precipice of a potential great depression is congress fails to act and rescue the financial services industry. Leadership is not about doing what your constituents think is right and what will get you reelected in November. Leadership is about doing what is RIGHT no matter what your constituents think. I can guarantee those congressman and congresswomen that voted aginst the bailout that when the people in their districts lose their jobs in afew weeks because the companies can't get money to function, they sure as hell aren't getting reelected.

I forget who said it, but the quote goes something like, "A leader isn't the the person who blindly leads everyone down a path in the jungle. A leader is the person who climbs up a tree, looks around and says that we are on the wrong path. I can see the mistake we've made and I can get us out of here."

""we never said that. ok, we did, but those people weren't credible".
Seems like a whole lot of folks are left without much credibility now a few months in to the panic..."

Again, don't get the obsession with lumping people into these supposed camps and being Steve's #1 fan, but so be it.

"which sort of proves my point of talking around things."

Don't see how, but suit yourself.

"Either way, I think you provide a lot of excellent insight here and you shouldn't get worked up or defensive about being wrong sometimes."

I don't think I get either. You seem to be of the type that if I say prices will fall 50% and they only fall 49%, you declare victory. Fine by me.

"I think you provide a lot of excellent insight here."

Thanks. Some say I'm universally hated. Oh, well.

bugelrex - True. Plenty of blame to go around, for sure.

Steve, am I going to have to start charging you for the therapy? Firts of all, "Don't see how, but suit yourself." This is another example of talking around things and being defensive. Try just stepping back and saying, "Yeah, you're right. I said the Dow would be at 5,000 and I was wrong. I let emotion get the best of me, oh well." That's it. End of story. You would earn a lot of respect from people and it's over. Secondly, "You seem to be of the type that if I say prices will fall 50% and they only fall 49%, you declare victory. Fine by me." This is called projecting. That means that your statement is your own way of admitting that that behavior is what yourself do, not the person you are addressing (me). You don't need to do this....ever. Being wrong is not the same as being weak or being stupid.

Finally, you aren't universally hated. Some knuckleheads will give you a hard time. That's what knuckleheads do. I wouldn't let those people deter you from being yourself, using your big brain, sharing your thoughts and, on those rare occasions, admitting you are wrong.

Now, please send me 5 cents so that I can purchase a share of Freddie Mac stock. I can feel a big rally coming that will push it at least 6 or 7 cents.

"No - it would be the one that is not available for rent, only for purchase. The one you can finally call home!"

It's a strange society that really sees "ownership" in a loan that is mostly not paid off. I don't see much difference with renting. But that's just me, I guess. Society as a whole does see it as ownership.

type3secretion (horribly creepy name, btw) - interesting point, but I was really talking about access to many apartments that just don't exist on the rental market. Additionally, "ownership" brings security of control: If you buy, your mortgage payment is set in stone for the next 30 years. Your rent is not. People like that certainty, and you can only be evicted by the bank. Also, if you own, you can renovate as you wish. Dream place + security + personalization = home.

type3secretion - that is the best name.....perhaps also the most disturbing....but it made me laugh!

"I going to have to start charging you for the therapy?"

You can charge me anything - but you won't get paid.

"This is another example of talking around things and being defensive."

No it's not.

"Try just stepping back and saying"

Why do you have this desire that I say things exactly the way you want me to? Very controlling, that.

"This is called projecting"

Actually, it's not. "Projecting" is the act of taking one's internal feelings and ascribing them to another. It's closely linked to splitting and black-and-white thinking, but I won't get into the details. After all, you're the therapist.

"Being wrong is not the same as being weak or being stupid."

Thank you for your concern. I never equated the three.

"you aren't universally hated"

Well first I could care less if I were - I was just repeating what some people have said.

re: West81st: "This thread comes across as knife-twisting, whether Stevejhx meant it that way or not."

I mean, ideally the level of discourse would always be super-civil, but as we know, online anonymity tends to strip civility away.

That being said, if you just go back about nine months or a year ago and look at posts of that era, the vitriol hurled at bears like stevejhx was incredibly fierce. He gave as good as he got, but gut-level common sense had really gone out the window with the bulls. To the extent people are thinking about asset prices (like real estate) in investment terms, or in fundamental supply/demand terms, the painful lesson that many people have to learn is that, in the middle of a trend going a particular direction, you really have to be extra-scrupulous about asking yourself how your own dearly-held working assumptions could be wrong.

It's called 'keeping an open mind.'

And as I said above, I think the bulls could be right to the extent they want to argue, "we'll go back to 2002 prices." That would still leave a lot of long-time New Yorkers with very nice gains on their properties. I think the potential exists, though, for the correction to be more severe than that, due to the timing differences. There's lots of unpredictable lags (such as the time difference between when people get laid off, and their severance stops - - or between where we are now and the months it'll still take to get clarity on how Wall Street bonuses will come out) in the equation. And those can cause things to overshoot on the downside as people get surprised. (For example, condo-builders who are expecting a certain magnitude of spring buying - - they could see less buying, and hence incoming cash flow, than they budgeted for.)

But you have to keep an open mind if you want to discern the truth promptly, when it can still do you some good, rather than once it's become self-evident and gotten priced into everyone's market expectations. Steve certainly sounded the alarm aggressively up front, and he's being proven far more right than wrong.

Steve - Haha....we all know that you still haven't admitted that you were wrong.

See, this is one of those times were you zig when you should zag and then you rub people the wrong way. No worries....I will leave you alone on this. Perhaps you are having a hard day.

I am going out on a limb here and say that yesterday in the stock market we reached capitulation. I think the message was sent throughout the world - and especially here - that something big needs to be done ASAP to prevent a global meltdown. We're already seeing action by the FDIC to increase deposit insurance; certainly by the end of the week we will see a bailout bill passed. Asia has already lowered interest rates; Europe and the US are likely not far behind.

Do I think we're out of the woods yet? No. But I do think the housing sector (other than Manhattan) will start to calm down within the next 3 months. It's down 20% throughout the country, up to 50% where it increased the most. The toxic assets will soon find a price - further write-downs are inevitable, but transparency is coming to the market. The nationalization of the banking sector - by giving so much market power to C, JPM, BAC - and the conversion of investment banks to commercial banks will both have a positive effect, the latter because of the limitation on leverage and risk. Watch GS and MS, WFC and USB pick up a few of the weaker regional banks, further concentrating banking power, and further enhancing regulation.

Internationally, China was the first to fall, so it should be the first to rise again. More than even the US, it drives international growth. The government has pledged to prop up the stock market, which will spread confidence throughout the world.

If oil stays around $80-$100 a barrel - which it should since speculation is being reined in - the international economy can withstand that. These painful past few weeks have done wonders to wring the excesses out of the system, for good.

Now then, I stand by what I said in my opening post about Manhattan real estate. The retooling of the financial services industry is just beginning. The psychology of sellers hasn't yet changed, and won't for some time to come.

Those are my predictions. After a horrible day yesterday, with the clarion bell of depression ringing loud, the message has sunk in. Too bad the administration bungled this so badly - much was unnecessary.

waverly: "then you rub people the wrong way."

I assume, then, that people = you.

More good news:

SEC, FASB Said to Issue Guidance on Fair-Value Accounting Rules

By Jesse Westbrook

Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and the Financial Accounting Standards Board may issue additional guidance on fair-value accounting rules, people familiar with the matter said.

The SEC may say companies can rely more on assumptions such as expected cash flows in assessing how much assets are worth, said the people, who declined to be identified because the plans haven't been completed. The guidance pertains to a requirement that banks review their assets each quarter and write them down if values have declined.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aF7mM2z4swgU&refer=home

I remember some "financial guru" laughed at me a week or so ago when I suggested this.

Hm, mark-to-model worked so well the last time around...

Already the need for the bailout has diminished. Reinstitute the uptick rule, behead naked short-sellers.

All of this distress - these losses - for naught. I only lost money; there are many out there who have lost their money, their retirement, and soon their homes. All because of stupid accounting rules.

This is the same crappy idea as having the Treasury pay values in excess of the marked-to-market price of securities. Let's mark all loans back to par, since at underwriting the assumption was full repayment.

Steve - not me. In fact, if you go back and read my posts, I've actually said many positive things about you. That's why it is interesting to see how you have reacted.

Good point on the SEC/FASB. This needs to happen and probably should have happened some tine ago, if only there was effective leadership and someone with a brain that was in favor of proactively dealing with problems. That's why we vote every 4 years, right?

The accounting changes/clarifications could have an immediate impact. I also think it will be interesting as some of the CFO's of the failed firms (Freddie and Fannie) are forced to testify as to the accounting practices they followed (or didn't follow) and how it gave them an inflated value. I know people who were auditors at these firms over the past several years and they were screaming bloody murder internally about the problems in the numbers. No one wanted to listen and we all seem to have paid a price for it.

Any executive who knew what their firm was doing was wrong should be crushed. The public will want blood and they may just get it.

"SEC, FASB Said to Issue Guidance on Fair-Value Accounting Rules"

don't think you can leave fair-value accounting. if firms get a temporary moratorium on fair-value (i.e., not using mark-to-market), then they go back to the same levels of make-believe valuations that got us all into this debacle to begin with on level 2 and level 3 assets. toxic paper priced at par on bank balance sheets. it'd be like i'm getting a margin account from my schwab account and i say "no, even though AAPL is trading at $113, it's true value based on my DCF is $180. So please mark that as $180 and I should no longer have a margin call. Thanks"

Not sure what everyone is getting so worked up about the new SEC/FSAB guidance....nothing is changing, just clarification for the Year End Audits...true they might be able park more things in Level 3...but eventually they will have to come out so it will be a slow burn ala Japan style...

This changes nothing and is just an appeasement to the Republicans to show that they are doing something...let's see if they are fooled....

Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission probably will resist calls to suspend the fair-value accounting rules that some members of Congress blame for exacerbating the global financial crisis, people familiar with the matter said.

The SEC and Financial Accounting Standards Board instead issued ``clarifications'' today on how banks should interpret existing rules that require them to review their assets each quarter and report losses if values have declined. A suspension isn't being considered, said the people, who declined to be identified because the plan hasn't been completed.

Special K - thank you! I was afraid that people weren't going to understand the issue here. I mean, who is going to monitor the assumptions made to value securities? What caused this mess to being with was that investments were determined to be safe based on a very bad set of assumptions. And relaxing regulation on how securities are valued will provide even more ways of fudging numbers.

"toxic paper priced at par on bank balance sheets. it'd be like i'm getting a margin account from my schwab account and i say "no, even though AAPL is trading at $113, it's true value based on my DCF is $180. So please mark that as $180 and I should no longer have a margin call. Thanks"

Actually its nothing like that because (a) you are not a reporting company and (b) there is a readily ascertainable market for AAPL. But nice try.

As to mark to market as with all of this its a little goddamn late to repeal at this point.

If they can park it as Level 3 it will buy some time. Without any rescue plan that would be useful.

"I could care less" if I were universally hated.

Steve, the correct turn of phrase is "I couldn't care less." Please pay more attention to detail.

yup, same old thread with steve posting the obvious and EWnyc10022 agreeing with everything he says.

"it'd be like i'm getting a margin account from my schwab account"

i meant margin call not margin account.

"Actually its nothing like that because (a) you are not a reporting company and (b) there is a readily ascertainable market for AAPL. But nice try."

Actually TA, it is exactly like that. Fair-value accounting encompasses assets where there is a liquid mark-to-market reference (Level 1), inactive market or observable inputs (Level 2), and unobservable inputs (Level 3). AAPL is a Level 1 asset. Gee, I realized I'm not a reporting company - that's why it's called an analogy.

As far as I can tell, the issue is whether to suspend all fair-value accounting for troubled financial institutions for all assets, including Level 1:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agj5r6nhOtpM&refer=home

The argument is that the current market price doesn't reflect the true value of these assets. Hmm, isn't that why I buy any stock or bond? Because I think the market is undervaluing it? Don't even get me started on the amount of manipulation available in Level 2 and Level 3 (aka mark-to-make-believe accounting). What we need is more stringent accounting standards and at the very least, consistent adherence to our existing standards to minimize B.S. marks and definitely not suspending FV accounting and mark-to-market pricing.

So TA, it's more than a nice try.

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God bless him

Nelson Mac