The Apthorp hits the market.

Good.........frickin'.......luck.......

malraux: I take it you won't be adding that 6200 sq.ft. 12-room to your portfolio of trophy West Side properties?

Come on, who wants to look at the puny 15 CPW courtyard when your view at Christmas time could be this:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_RzcvvcmjTag/R3r99KASuQI/AAAAAAAAA6s/JyRXaGG-zgg/s640/IMG_0892.JPG

besides the fancy ones, around $2k psf.
They announced $3k a year ago.

We're clearly lower now, but I still think thats a joke for an apartment without any views or major amenities... and that happened to be the site of a sex bathhouse.

The Ansonia was the site of Plato's Retreat, not the Apthorp.

oh shit, I thought we were talking about the Ansonia. Brain fart.

Which one is the Apthorp? Or wait, I know that one, I've been there.

Yeah, $2k psf. Sorry, no. Unless its 2007 again next year.

I'd rather pay 2000psf for the Apthorp than 4000psf for 15 Central Park West.

But I wouldn't pay those prices for either one. This is just the worst possible time to release all those units.

The Beresford and the Dakota have way more going for them than the Apthorp. And, there are actually units available in both!

absolutely on the latter.

But I think I'd rather overpay for 15 CPW. At least its got some major positives. Apthorp is just bland with not much going for it...

The Apthorp is bland? Dude, two minutes ago you didn't even know what building it was. The Apthorp is not bland--it's a pretty fantastic building. Just no reason to pay that much to live there.

You want bland: check out....15 CPW. What a boring, unattractive building.

If you have Abthorp envy - and you should - take a look at this Nora Ephron article from The New Yorker. When it was a rental, she paid (circa 1980) a tenant $24,000 "key money" to take over the lease.
Nora Ephron, Personal History, “Moving On,” The New Yorker, June 5, 2006, p. 34

ABSTRACT: PERSONAL HISTORY about the writer's love affair with her Upper West Side apartment, the Apthorp. In February, 1980, two months after the birth of my second child and the simultaneous end of my marriage, I fell madly in love with a huge apartment on the Upper West Side. It was on the fifth floor of the Apthorp, a famous stone pile on the corner of Broadway and 79th Street. The rent was $1500 a month, which, by Manhattan standards, was practically a bargain. In addition, I had to pay the previous tenant $24,000 in key money for the right to move in. The apartment had beautiful rooms; high ceilings; lots of light; two gorgeous fireplaces; and five bedrooms. I was planning to live there forever. Till death did us part. All stories about love begin with a certain amount of rationalization. After a few weeks, I couldn't imagine living anywhere else. I believed that at the lowest moment in my adult life I'd been rescued by a building. When you give up your apartment in New York and move to another city, New York becomes the worst version of itself. The Apthorp, which was built in 1908 by the Astor family, is 12 stories high and the size of a full city block. From the street, it's lumpen, but its core is a large courtyard with fountains and a lovely garden. Enter the courtyard, and the city falls away; it also provides countless opportunities for tenants to socialize. I had several acquaintances who lived in the building. The man I was seeing, whom I eventually married, occupied a top-floor apartment. My sister Delia and her husband moved into the building. My friend Rosie O'Donnell took an apartment there and became so captivated by a doorman named George that she booked him on her talk show. I lived in the Apthorp in a state of giddy delirium for 10 years. The water in the bathtub often ran brown and there were mice, but who cared? Describes a neighbor's altercation with a professor who left his bicycle in the vestibule outside their apartment; the police had to be called. Eventually, I began having a recurring dream that I'd accidentally moved out. Around 1990, rumors began to spread that rent stabilization could be abolished and landlords would be able to raise rents to fair-market value. I refused to believe it would happen. And then the building hired a manager named Barbara Ross, a small, frightening woman with pale skin and a huge, jet-black beehive of hair. She lurked everywhere and had a way of making you feel guilty even if you were entirely innocent. Meanwhile, the state legislature passed a luxury-decontrol law and Miss Ross informed me that my rent was going to be tripled. After she dropped the price a bit, I signed a new lease, because I wasn't ready to get a divorce from my building. My apartment in the Apthorp was part of my identity. Then truly shocking things began to happen. The landlords cleaned the building and began making improvements in order to raise our rents. Rich tenants moved in and movie stars came and went. The courtyard, once an idyllic spot full of happy children, was suddenly crowded with idling limousines. My lease expired again, and my rent was effectively raised 400%. And, just like that, I fell out of love. Twelve thousand dollars a month is a lot of cappuccino. I called a broker and began looking at apartments. Unrequited love's a bore. It had taken me significantly longer to come to that realization in the area of real estate than it ever had in the area of marriage. The new place was considerably smaller than the apartment in the Apthorp, and it was on the Upper East Side. Within hours of moving in, however, I was home. And I was mortified. Why hadn't I left at the first whiff of the other woman's perfume? On the other hand, I'm never going to dream about this new apartment. It's not love. It's just where I live.

west 81st:

WOW - that's soooooooome tree - and believe you me, that's a compliment from a jew!

15 CPW compared to the Apthorp? Please. Location, location, location. One is directly on the Central Park in a great location, the other is in the middle of nothin'.

And I would rather have a joint in the Dakota as compared to the Beresford, anyday. As long as I could have Lenny's apartment!

Malraux: I'm glad you liked the tree. I think you know the comparison with 15 CPW was tongue-in-cheek, though I do think Stern's homage-courtyard is a pathetic shadow of the originals (Apthorp and Belnord).

malraux,

i agree that given its location one can expect to pay a higher psf at 15 cpw than at the apthorp. that said, i think the apthorp is a far better building--it is legitimately beautiful. 15 CPW is a boring, poorly executed design--just what one would expect from Bob Stern. every design cliche in the book stapled together into something to market to the rich and tasteless. it is pastiche architecture, and not in a good way. and the apartments are quite....bleh, compared to either original prewar masterpieces, or to the truly spectacular brand new glass tower pads--like, say the full floor units at the top of the Time Warner Center.

Its a big beautiful building, but I wouldnt touch it. What they dont tell you is the structural damage in the building. Back in september they moved all of the cars of their basement garage and scattered them throughout the city without telling the owners. Its hysterical. Walk past the garage workers on 79th between Bway and WEA and they are sitting outside in front of the locked garage. You have to call an hour ahead of time and they run to the garage where your car is parked.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/thecity/21apth.html

The garage issue is not really about structural problems--the owners just wanted to get the garage tenant out since they have a stabilized lease for like the next 100 years. I live across the street and used to park there. It's a well-known fact at this point.

The real issue with this building is the fact that well over 50% of the apartments are still occupied by rent-stabilized tenants, despite many buy-outs. Also, interesting that none of the listings even hint at the maintenance/common charges.

It's a love affair with the Apthorp. Either you get it or you don't. Much like the Ansonia or Dorilton or the Belnord. I have drooled over the floorplan many times in the NYPL digital library (there are some truly amazing apartment buildings that have been built in NYC over the years).

And no contest. I would take courtyard, high floor Apthorp over park-view 15 CPW.

I had an acquaintance who lived at the Apthorp. Gosh, golly, drool: what a place!!!!!!! That was a grand apt.

let's not confuse issues. one question is: will this be a successful conversion? a very different question: would this be a great place to live? i'd love to live at the apthorp. but i do not think the conversion will be successful. it is just the worst possible time to release luxury apartments onto the market.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Astor Court as a comp for the Apthorp. Same concept, perhaps a lesser location (4 blocks north of the Belnord), but also a grand apartment building of a similar vintage. Wouldn't the Astor Court be a good comp albeit with a 10-20% discount? Apartments at the Astor Court have recently been on the market at much less than $2000/sf, even though some of them are admittedly in estate condition. I, too, have a crush on the Apthorp, but not a sufficiently hopeless one that would bring me to pay the asking price.

Excellent point aptometrist. Also, there is no indication in the Apthorp listings as to whether they are selling these apartments as-is or renovated by the sponsor. All pre-war conversions, even high-end ones, make this distinction. Usually, though, a lack of interior photos indicates that a renovation is required. While I myself would prefer a totally unrenovated apartment with as much detail as possible, I don't think the prices will be low enough to reflect the cost of updating these apartments.

happyrenter--I'd love to live at the Apthorp too--heck, I've been staring into that courtyard from across the street for more than 10 years! While the apartments are absolutely stunning and unrivaled, I've heard that maintenance will be astronomical and will just go up, up, up since the building is apparently trying to go really high-end with all types of amenities.

i think they are making a big mistake with the apthorp. people don't buy into a building like that for the amenities. it is a classic, classy building, and that is why people will buy in.

speaking of amenities: in a declining market they are really an albatross around the neck of many apartments. i don't want to pay for a lot of crap i won't use.

The term "luxury" feels so passe and overused by marketers. Are people still craving "luxury," or have they become wary of the word? Does it conjure up images of "rip-off", "deception", or, more practically, "bad investment"? Isn't our Gilded Age over?

I think the word "Luxury" needs to go when describing real estate in this market. Until sellers realize this, I think "luxury" with exorbitant price tags, will have a difficult time selling - no one likes a bad deal!

The Apthorp will attract buyers once the sellers file for bankruptcy, the high-end amenities are back-burnered, and a raw space apartment w/ some Columbia grad students living there, asks less than $1,000 psf. Then it might be interesting.

mrsblogs: I don't think we'll see the Apthorp sink that far. But you did put your finger on the fundamental problem with this conversion: the nearly half-billion dollar price paid for the building in 2007. A lot of things have to turn out right for that number to work, no matter how unique and wonderful the building is.

Aptometrist: Right you are - Astor Court would be #3 on that list, after Apthorp and Belnord. Its charms are somewhat subtler, though. You can walk past Astor Court and think it's just another brick apartment building with a Jennifer Convertibles on the ground floor. It's hard to make that mistake with the other two, although Belnord has a full complement of crappy retail on two sides and Apthorp is the proud home of a bank branch, two bus stops and several other non-attractions. The gates, guardhouses and vast expnses of stone give them a uniquely imposing look, even with all the junk at ground level.

I apologize in advance, this will be my first negative comment on Streeteasy. Are you guys for real, living on Broadway, on top of a subway stop as compared to CPW; Beresford, all the way down to the Majestic. I love the Apthorp, but at 1200psf, at 2000sft you must be smoking rope to live there vs CPW at a lower price point. I tried to rent there 5-6 years ago, but the agent-in-charge wouldn't budge on the price. The unit sat empty for years. This building should trade at a 20-30% discount to CPW, not premium. It is solely due to Lev overpaying for the building, period. When it finally gets listed at correct comps, 20-30% discount to CPW, there will be a long line to get in.

I've been in Astor Court apartments - couldn't convince my better half to live up there. The interiors are unpreposessing. Most of the prewars on CPW are co-ops, so it's not a fair comparison. As in you may be paying X/sqft but you need to be worth $$$$$$$ to actually pass the board.

10023: not sure if your reply was to me, but, just because one can afford north of 2000psf for the Apthorp on a cash flow basis and doesn't possess the down, shouldn't require one to significantly overpay.

patient09: I basically agree with you about Broadway vs. CPW, but the comparison is more complicated than just one avenue versus the other, and the price variation on CPW is huge.

Even within each building, prices vary widely, with the big differentiator naturally being views. I think an apartment on the southwest corner of the Beresford runs about $4-5K psf. Of course, you can have the address for less than half that price - facing west on a low floor - but what's the point?

By the way, there's a subway station under the Beresford too. Just sayin'.

The only reason I threw out the name Beresford is because it was used early. Not a huge fan of that building either. 81&CPW, not my idea of a fun corner. Much nicer buildings just south, but without the name recognition. Architecture is overrated, construction quality, quality of life, convenience, neighbors and price matter much more. When I mentioned the subway, I meant proximity to the stop, not the underground aspect. This issue is so under appreciated, many have been seduced by quality of life in the boom since '95. I lived 89th and 3rd 1985-92..86th and lex subway stop, paint me another pretty memory..crime, violence..etc..Don't underestimate the risk of the ability of crime rates to return and where it may occur.

I lived on Riverside near the Apthorp and it takes my breath away--no matter how many times I pass it in a day.
Oh the Apthorp has one of the finest pharmacies in Manhattan. It's the anti-Duane Reade and takes insurance

Nora Ephron talks about paying key money to a tenant, I knew people who paid 50 to 100K to a former owner

I don't find the Beresford magical--but I have to live spitting distance from a park

I agree that 2k+ may be overpaying, but you just can't simply compare a co-op on CPW to a condo. CPW with no views in say 257 CPW would not trade as high as a high-floor apt in Apthorp.

I'm not sure what the "right" price would be, but I think one could get 7m for an 8-room spread on the 4th floor in the Apthorp even today.

The main problem here is that you are gambling in terms of how the building will be run. Common charges will most likely be high and then skyrocket, especially in a conversion billed as high-end luxury. Yet, more than half the apartments will remain rent-stabilized rentals. I have friends in the building who say that many rent-stabilized people have refused buy-outs. That being said, the raw spaces are magnificent. Not sure they'll remain that way, though.

Interesting article on the troubles of the Apthorp conversion in The Real Deal: http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/leviev-planned-to-market-apthorp-for-552m

I particularly enjoyed the bit about Leviev's wish to put a business dispute with his partner in front of a "rabbinical arbitration board." I would be tempted to call this method of dispute resolution a "Hail Mary" if the participants were not Jewish.

I wonder if the developers would have been fighting so viciously if they hadn't overpaid for the building ($2.6m per unit) and apartments were actually selling at $3,000 psf.

Another batch of inventory just hit Streeteasy. There are now 23 units listed here:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/2211-broadway-new_york

my god! those prices. how do they expect to sell anything here?

Color me crazy, but I don't think that 5m+ for an 8-room apt in the Apthorp is ridiculous. I would worry about the general mtce and upkeep of the building, though.

it wouldn't be ridiculous if they were selling one apartment. but the whole building. in this market. i don't see a way they can do that without serious reductions.

The trouble is - who wants to be the first one to bite? You plonk your money in escrow, and who knows when you get to close...

everyone on here fetishizes the uws to such a degree that i am sure someone somewhere will bite eventually. after more chops though. it is a beautiful building.

On a sunny spring day like this (I'm laid up with flu), it's hard NOT to love the UWS. Birds singing, trees in blossom, all the lovely brownstone streets, kids in the playgrounds & parks...

What's the trajectory for a building like this? Even if the developer were to cut prices another 40%, that's still $1.2M for a large 1BR.

I think they'll have trouble getting buyers - because buyers will have trouble financing, the number of all-cash buyers in love with the Apthorp is very small. Unless the bank steps in and offers mortgages to everyone who qualifies. And honestly, if I were paying 5m+ would I want to be stuck with a bunch of crotchety RS/RC tenants who are paying 2k to live in the same size apts, enjoying all the amenities and not having the same stake that I did?

Considering what the sponsors paid for the building, these prices might be "loss leaders".

I just don't see any way this plan can succeed. Best case for this magnificent structure might be an outcome like the Belnord's: a negotiated settlement that leaves the building as a mix of regulated and free-market rentals, with a managed plan for gradual deregulation (and possibly another attempt at condo conversion).

Crazy--$2 million for a 1BR. No matter how beautiful of a building, not worth it.

Besides the price, I would not want to be part of a fledgling condo board controlled indefinitely by amateurs like Mann & friends. No way in hell. Expect capricious decisions and maintenance increases to the maximum allowed.

The sponsors will end up defaulting on the loan, bank will take it back and try to sell off the mortgage to someone else - at least 50% off. Condo conversion will happen again, just not in Mann/Leviev's hands. They can't afford it.

Maybe they get those prices if they chase out the rent stabbie people.

No way anyone with sense will pay those prices to live in the building as is, with the existing neighbors. Who pays 6 million to live in the same place as someone paying 2k a month?

And yes, I have been in there - the ceilings and location and charm are great. But it does not have the "vibe" of a 2-3k a foot place. Rather run down. At that price go to the Ansonia. Or the Harrison.

Given the risks it should trade for less than the nicer co-ops around it (1k a foot give or take, for long-term holders willing to take a financial risk on a potentially nice building).

Even I predict zero sales. And I am the blindly optimistic one. :)

2k per square feet is absolute insanity. But, at times, the insane do walk the streets.

Current classic6/7 on WEA seems to ask 1000-1100 psf. Apthorp will have to adjust or will just sit with their inventory.

The apthorp is gorgeous. Great location -- will get a premium to market -- but not double.

mfox:

Yes, the Apthorp is gorgeous to many. So. The thinking still works. what is your baseline? 1800sqft classic six UWS...who knows, call it $1,000 per sq ft. Then we can start doing all the additions and subtractions. The ONLY positive I can think of is that SOME think it is gorgeous. Negatives, potential disastrous conversion, challenged infrastructure, location, rent stb neighbors for as long as you live, you may never move in, etc..etc.. No dog in this fight, but my "basic instinct" is that the conversion will fail. Math probably doesn't work for the banks and owners at $1,400 per. And there is just ZERO chance more than and handful will pay $2,000 per. Hell, you can get almost what ever you want on both UES and UWS for $1,800 or less in ULTRA stable buildings.

Why is having renting neighbors a problem? Most co-ops and condos have stabilized renters who didn't buy and stayed on for decades after conversion. No horror stories that I've heard of.

The Apthorp's been renting destabilized apartments for $15-35K per month for years. Having $2K neighbors didn't bother them, or they wouldn't have rented.

NWT: I agree with everything u type. However, at this price point its a new game. New buyers want more. They want the fairy tale. They want the upgrades, they want the whole enchilada. When it comes time time for big ticket improvements and only 55% of the building is owning or paying market rates, how is that going to travel. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. My only point is that there are many more stable and easier choices at this price point. Simply too many potential "issues" to deal with without getting a discount to the competition. Yes, if it traded at a fully renovated $800 per sqft would I buy, yes, I'll take 2, but $2,000, doubt it. Reality lies somewhere in between. My .02 says the conversion fails.

One other thing, at $2,000 per sqft, think about the buildings you are competing against. Tell me about there stabilized tenants, their finances, their neighborhood, views, building condition. Not even an argument there.

Apthorp location is not great -- 79th and Broadway. At best its a wash with similar WEA addresses in that area (West 70s/80s).

The courtyard is interesting, but when your done -- you have an apartment facing other apartments. I personally wouldn't pay a premium for it, but its your choice. I also don't see the attraction to the Ansonia. I prefer newer construction.

Thought this'd be a good point to throw out some numbers. Fortunately, the $426M buyer sued the seller over some finical detail, so many hundreds of pages of docs are now public records.

Here's the monthly rent-roll summary as of February 2006:

Vacant units: 26
Occupied units: 182

Actual rent: $918,428.85 (average: $4405.91)
Ideal rent: $1,139,930.15 (average: $5480.43)

Oops, February 2007, not 2006.

too bad you can't find the equivalent for 2009. would be fascinating to see. vacancies are probably up -- really wonder about the average rent. bottom line--people who are currently living there with stabilized leases are laughing on their way to the bank every day.

I'd been hoping the dispute between the buyer partners would result in even more, and more current, docs being posted, but no. Even so, the 2007 sale docs are as complete a picture of a transaction and a building as we're ever likely to see.

Assuming expenses of about $6 mm per year purchased for a cap rate of what -- 2%. This deal doesn't work unless the units get sold a similar cap rates.

I guess Leviev and partners were as likely to buy emotionally as anyone else. Imagine the sellers' ecstasy at having them turn up. "We got us a live one here!"

I think the best scenario for the bank is a tenant-led buyout. They might even get 50 cents on the dollar for their loan. And a building with owners is almost always better run and maintained than a rental - that would be great for the Upper West Side and the Apthorp is a key building on Bway.

I count 11 residential floors + 1 commercial floor. A typical floorplan shows 12 apts on each floor, each at least 7 rooms each (say average 8 rooms). That's 132 potential 8-room apts (ignoring the fact that there may have been splits & maid's rooms). What do you think each apt is worth, on average, including the fact that they may be rent-controlled/rent-stabilized? 500k, 1m? Say on average, 1m (the insider price that would make sense for RC/RS tenants to buy increased by the value of the vacant units). That's 132m + commercial space + value of the roof space (assuming there is FAR, and I think there would be) left to build a few penthouse units.

I think Anglo-Irish (?) would be wise to pursue a deal with the tenants. There is a price at which they can achieve a successful conversion with tenants buying in.

UWS experts: How has this thread aged? What is the Apthorp’s current situation? Asking for a friend . . ..

Where are NWT and W81 today? I desperately want their insight on The Apthorp today.