Board Package

Sure. The managing agent will tell you what's required, how many copies, etc.

I don't want the sellers broker to see any details about my finances, etc. Is that possible? Must he be there at my board interview?

Of course not. The seller won't be there, and certainly not the seller's broker.

The seller's broker is not present at your board interview, ever. The only time you'll see him/her is at the closing when the seller will cut him/her a check. That's it.

How do I get access to the apt if I don't have a broker prior to closing?

I dont want him there while I am getting contractor estimates. Who lets me in??

You can not have an access to the apartment before the closing because it's not your apartment. If the owner agrees to have someone to let you in, then you're in luck.

You could call the seller and arrange all that. If you have no broker, and won't deal with the seller's broker, then all that stuff can only be between you and the seller, or between you and the seller's managing agent.

Seller is out of country. Can't I see apt with contractor/decorator for measurment purposes?

The seller's managing agent will not let you in without the seller's OK, or even being present. Remember, it's not your apartment until the closing is completed.

Something tells me measuring's going to be the least of your problems.

Sounds like you have no broker and a bad attorney. A lot of this is stuff which should have been hammered out in the contract like:

"I don't want the sellers broker to see any details about my finances, etc. Is that possible?"

"You can not have an access to the apartment before the closing because it's not your apartment. If the owner agrees to have someone to let you in, then you're in luck."

Any decent attorney would have arranged for this issue in the contract: how many times, when, how access is given, etc.

However I will tell you that as a seller, I wouldn't agree to an awful lot of what you "want".

the contract states that I can see the apt as much as I want within reason prior to closing. Great idea to add clause (30 yrs) that sellers broker cannot review my finances.

It's still not your apartment. It may never become your apartment if the board turns you down.
A broker cares only about closing the deal. If there's something in your finances that will not pass the board, everyone is better off knowing it now.

Stakan,
No, finances are great. Its more about the details of my finances....my accounts etc.

The sellers broker does not get your package -- only the managing agent and the board of directors. That said -- somebody on the board of my building about how much they "wish they had my finances"... totally grooss. Part of the coop buy-in...

Why would the broker care?

gross

what i cannot stomach is the lack of privacy. I am getting turned off and thinking about just buying a condo

The board package is destroyed by the board whether you are approved or turned down.
Why do you presume that someone is always ready to commit fraud with your info? Especially people whose livelihood depends on client relationship?

Most condos now have some sort of screening mechanism that will have your finances exposed. Risky days for condos now, and they rightfully want to make sure that you'll be paying cc.

Let's sum up here:

-- No buyer's broker.
-- Seller can't be contacted. (That seems odd; it's 2009 and everyone takes a phone overseas.)
-- Buyer won't deal with seller's broker.

There's nobody left but you and the lawyers. I'd say leave all this for your lawyer and the seller's lawyer to work out.

If the sellers won't be around for the closing, they may well given their lawyer a power of attorney to deal with all these details.

Can I bring a buyers broker in now? I found this place by myself (there are 2 sellers brokers) one who told me he would leave the seller and represent me (seems unethical) and the seller still has the partner, of course they get the entire commission. Yes, attorney does have POA for the seller and he is reasonable.

being on a board. 2 suggestions:
* you absolutely do not need a broker. The managing agent will help you if needed.
* the applications generally from what i have seen do not get shredded. Some board even keep them for records. I would black out all ss/account numbers. This is becoming a huge issue to applicants.

Robocop,
Thanks for the advice. I have heard stories of board packages in city garbage cans for all to read. I really don't want this broker to get the entire commission b/c he does not deserve it.

You can't just go buy a condo now. You've signed a contract for the co-op, correct? You really do need to talk with your lawyer about all this.

Neither of the seller's brokers can stop representing the seller and start representing you.

NWT,
CONTRACT IS NOT SIGNED YET. IT IS SITTING IN THE ATTORNEYS OFFICE. I may be inexperienced but I am not , I repeat no Stupid.

umbrella27, something is not right with your story. Are you telling it as it is?

You were just saying, "the contract states that I can see the apt as much as I want within reason prior to closing". But you didn't even sigh the contract. So... what's going on?

Great, then you're all set. Walk away. Some people are suited to a co-op, and some aren't. It sounds as if you fall into the latter group, and you found out before being committed.

robocop, all buildings I've dealt with shred the package. SS numbers stay with management.

Stakan, Read it from the top. I found an apt on line, went to open house, liked apt (no broker) made a bid, offer accepted, contract in attorneys office, (seller out of town.) then sellers broker called to tell me that I must sign contract immed b/c there was another offer 30 grand over. I told my attorney, Sellers attorney said there is no other offer, and the broker was an ass and is lying and just wanted me to sign my contract in 1 day, prior to reading board minutes, contract etc.....Pressure sales job. Now Im pissed and don't want the 2 of them to share the entire 5-6% commission. Get it?

PS: sellers brokers decided to split off and represent me after they had a deal with the seller. Sleazy and unethical??? Correct.

Got it because you told it. OK. You said you wanted to see the apt. before the closing, and that's how it started.
By the way, what if there is another offer? Nobody is obligated to reveal it to you.

Stakan,
Correct. No one has to reveal another buyer. this apt has been on the market for a very long time. It is customary to read contract, minutes and make adjustments prior to signing contract. Issue is I DON'T WANT THEM TO GET THE ENTIRE COMMISION SINCE THEY DIDN'T DO SHIT FOR ME.

umbrella27, can you imply a bit more about the place? Size and ballpark price?

umbrella, WAIT A MINUTE. SELLER is paying the commission, NOT YOU. Why do you care?

B/C HE TRIED TO SCREW the seller too, by splitting off and attempting to become my broker too. He was negotiating both deals against each other.

Again, walk away. You should deal with jerks only if (a) your bases are covered and (b) you're going to make money. Both.

(SE aside, of course.)

They are scum but if it's a good deal for you... You can't exterminate all rats. But make sure the seller know of this commission scam. Tell your attorney to communicate it to the seller's attorney.

umbrella - 5 years ago i did my own board package and it turned out alright - it was a pain in the ass but i had no broker and just did it myself out of necessity. also, i just sold my place and the buyer had a real estate consultant that i recommended do his package for him and he did a bang up job...and it was a tricky package, ie. income from 2 sole props including salary and bonus, divorced, owns another home, etc.

if you want me to put you in touch with him email me apt11K4sale@me.com

"The board package is destroyed by the board whether you are approved or turned down. "

I would definitely NOT assume this to be the case.

umbrella27, I totally understand your frustration dealing with these crackbrained desperate brokers.

I would definitely take a day or two to read the contract yourself. Even good attorneys can make mistakes, be mindful of the numbers.

During my board interview, one of the board members offered my board package back to me on the spot, which was an opening for me to ask for it back from the others in attendance. Prior to the interview I had expressed concern to my broker about the board packages after the interview, and she had relayed that information to the managing agent who said he would shred them. Maybe you can set the expectation before the interview with the managing agent, that you'd very much like to get the copies back at the conclusion of the interview? Just a thought.

Stakan,

Since you deal with many boards, you must be a broker. I am on a board and can tell our managing agent (and its buildings) nor our board members have a defined policy to shred. I do. Many that I know do not even have a shredder. They are not malicious, but the garbage hunters might be. I really think this is worthy of city legislation. I would not worry about the board people with your information; the people in the managing agents' office is another story

"Most condos now have some sort of screening mechanism that will have your finances exposed. Risky days for condos now, and they rightfully want to make sure that you'll be paying cc."

Which is, in fact, ILLEGAL.

Despite the fact that a growing number of condo associations contend that they are empowered to either approve or disapprove the transfer of ownership, the reality is that they have almost no power at all. Nor do they have the authority to "screen" any prospective buyers. In the State of New York, condos are allowed to ask for only two pieces of information: the prospective buyer's name and current address. That's it.

I'm eagerly awaiting for the first lawsuit in New York City to challenge this growing power grab by condo associations.

Condos do have board packages and can excercise the "RIGHT OF FIRST REFUSAL". This means that if they look at your financials and do not like them, they can purchase the apartment from the seller for the same price. They can even meet with you.

umbrella27, I hear you about the broker. I had a similar experience when purchasing my first apartment. I got so upset that I actually got my RE license to make sure that this liar would never do anything like that in the building where I live. It worked out well. I made money, she had 1 sale in 6 yrs, and I never screwed anyone.
Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do about the broker. You need to have a good attorney, it seems like you do, to outline whatever you want in the contract, to review all pertinent documents and only then let you sign. It is better to lose the apartment, then get into a contract where you're going to loose your shirt.

My advice to you is not to visit the apartment until you're approved by the board. After the approval, the seller will be happy and you will not be waisting your time bringing contractors in.

"Condos do have board packages ..."

Just because condos demand -- and receive -- board packages doesn't make it legal.

And while it is true that condos can exercise the "Right of First Refusal", it legally cannot be based on any information other than the prospective buyer's name and current address.

The conditions of ROFR are established in one of the condo's docs. Don't know whether it's the declaration, or bylaws, or what, but those I remember flipping past were more elaborate than name and address.

Bylaws or building charters do not supersede state law. They may be written in -- perhaps even engraved with platinum plating -- but codifying them doesn't give them any legal weight. The fact remains that state law gives condos the authority to ask for only name and current address.

Check your contract and review very carefully with your attorney. A copy of your board package needs to be submitted in 10 days to the sellers broker who frankly should have been reviewing alot of your financial information even before accepting the offer. If you are not comfortable with the broker representing the seller - than perhaps contact their management who can provide you a review of your package. The broker is getting paid by the seller and none of that is your concern

I don't know what seller's broker you're dealing with, but on my listings I make darn sure I review the board packages that come in -- it's my job and one of my responsibilities towards the seller. No way would I let a package go straight to the managing agent!

If your privacy concerns are this great, buy a condo.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

"B/C HE TRIED TO SCREW the seller too, by splitting off and attempting to become my broker too. He was negotiating both deals against each other."

If you don't have a broker then they were getting both pieces of the deal all along anyway. Maybe he was trying to make you think like he was doing you a favor and would be looking out for you (which is not only a lie, but very sleazy). The fact is that he has no fiduciary responsibility towards you whatsoever.

You could also call them back and tell them that you've seen something else that you like that is cheaper and that they have 24 hours to submit their lowest asking price to you or you'll go with the other apartment.

'If you don't have a broker then they were getting both pieces of the deal all along anyway'

do some listing agreements allow for a reduced commission if no buyers broker or if sold by listing aqent?

All else aside, what front porch says is true. No broker will let your board package go directly to the MA. They work for the seller, not for you, and part of that job is making certain the board package is at it should be. The addition of a buyer's agent would do nothing to change this btw, as it is still the LISTING brokers responsibility to check the board package.

NYCMatt,

citation, please?

have you not encountered this guy before? the only citation he'll be able to find will be made out to nyc department of parking violations.

Re: ROFR, at 15CPW, for example, the board requires a copy of the Sale Agreement or Lease Agreement, "in addition to any other information about the Offeror the board may reasonably request." If such a provision is illegal in some way, don't know why the lawyers would bother including it.

30yrs: "NYCMatt, citation, please?"

New York real estate law. I learned it when I studied for my broker's license. Feel free to look it up yourself.

"at 15CPW, for example, the board requires a copy of the Sale Agreement or Lease Agreement, "in addition to any other information about the Offeror the board may reasonably request." If such a provision is illegal in some way, don't know why the lawyers would bother including it."

Because there's nothing illegal in REQUESTING information. They can ask for your income, your shoe size, and even the kind of sex you get into. But you are also free to decline the information. REQUIRING the disclosure of that information, however, is illegal -- outside of your legal name and current address.

NYCMatt: I also just completed course work leading up to passage of the broker licensing exam (though I have applied for an actual license).

I do not believe there is any restriction in NY State on what the by-laws of a condo association can impose with respect to information that must be provided prior to transfer of a condo. Quoting from "Modern Real Estate Practice in New York for Brokers" by Lank page 190 (common text for Broker license prep):

"[Condo] Owners are, however, bound by the bylaws of an owners' association to which all belong. Monthly fees are levied for the maintenance, insurance, and management of common elements.....The bylaws also set up covenants, conditions and restrictions (CC&Rs) which, for example, may prohibit the display of For Sale signs or painting the front door bright red. Owners even may adopt bylaws that restrict leasing of units."

Sounds to me like conditioning the sale of a unit on the production of buyer financials would be well within the permitted boundaries of NY State Condo Bylaws.

Should read (though I have NOT applied for an actual license)

Thanks, mjsalisb. So a board can put the parties through the wringer, delaying the sale through repeated requests for more information, knowing they're not likely to be sued over their definition of "reasonable". I'd suspect that that tactic, like exercising the ROFR, isn't used all that often, but bylaws are written with the idea of reserving that power to the board.

But a potential condo-buyer concerned about these things will of course have read the bylaws carefully, anyway.

mjsalisb, that is not true at all.

I appreciate the quote, but quoting from a textbook is not the same as actually quoting New York state real estate legal code.

I understand the rules are murky, even more so since condo "boards" have been pretending to be co-op boards. But I reiterate, condos are legally only allowed to demand two pieces of information from prospective buyers: name and current address.

Matt....I (and others) would be more likely to accept your repeated assertion if you were able to cite specific NY case law, statute or reg....I've looked over materials sent to me by the NYDOS and find nothing to support your position, unfortunately.

mj, I'm not a a lawyer. I'm only quoting what other real estate lawyers have told ME.

I can't wait for someone to finally put this to the test in a courtroom.