Long Island City - Toxic Waste Dump

"the creek was 4-1/4 inches"

That wasn't the creek you were measuring, LICC.

"The creek does not negatively affect anything at the park."

Sure. Not the smell, not the heavy metals, not the prevailing Venusian atmosphere. Nothing.

Maybe if they get a Chipotle Grill there, it would smell like fajitas instead.

Could you imagine going to a park that's just 4.5 inches from an EPA Superfund brownfield?

And what about all that noise from the railyard that the Daily News documents and you deny exists, LICC?

"If your point is that Long Island City is NOT a toxic waste dump, just say that. And when Newtown Creek is declared a Superfund Brownfield, get back to me"

If you read my very first post to this thread, you can see I'm fully aware of the levels of pollution in Newtown Creek. Yup, it's unfortunate, and yes, the immediate surrounding areas are undoubtedly suffering because of this, though the extent of that damage is largely unknown. LIC itself is definitely grimy in many spots, but there's clearly been a lot of positive development and the opening of this new park is a major plus. All you want to do though is bash that and anything associated with the neighborhood, solely, it seems, because of the ongoing animosity between yourself and LICC. And yet, when someone clearly shows you that the area YOU live in may well be MORE toxic, you try and squirm your way out of it with some pretty incredible bs about the invalidity of age-adjusting (which is again, done to avoid confounding - please take an epi class if you don't get this). Sorry, but your posts on this thread are pretty much malarkey. We know you don't like LIC (or LICC, most likely) - why the need to post about it ad nauseum?

Because he's a moron.

1979 relates to the Love Canal, which is the Newtown Creek Lite.

I have nothing against LICC - and ericho, please don't call him a moron because I abhor ad hominem attacks.

bjw, I live next to a cemetery. If death is catching, then I guess I'm doomed.

as much as I love pounding on overvalued RE , ithink this thread has gotten out of control. Its one thing to say you overpaid, but this crosses the line. let these guys live in LICC if they choose. just my .02c

They can live wherever they want, but let's call it like it is: developers are asking Manhattan prices for a toxic wasteland, and it's not worth anywhere near what people have been paying, polluted park and projects aside.

steve has to keep posting because he is an obnoxious, annoying person, who isn't very smart but thinks that he is, and feels like he needs to show everyone. He has an annoying combination of lack of intelligence and arrogance. He can't stand that I consistently point out the flaws and mistakes of his theories, so he has to try to criticize LIC any time he can. He can't even see that his continuing to push his nonsense on this thread has reduced his already shot credibility even more.

Seriously, we are not talking about a nice guy here. steve is a lying, obnoxious, petulant, weird person, who is blind to the fact that he has become a clown on these threads.

There are hundreds of people who go to the Gantry Parks on every nice day. Hundreds of people go to the Water Taxi Beach, which is a couple blocks south of these parks. People from Manhattan come over to enjoy the parks and the WTB. If there were some horrible smells coming from where the East River and Newtown Creek meet, do you think all these people would spend all this time having fun there?

"They can live wherever they want, but let's call it like it is: developers are asking Manhattan prices for a toxic wasteland, and it's not worth anywhere near what people have been paying, polluted park and projects aside."

You're joking right? One, the high prices are due to most of the inventory being new development. Comparable new developments in Manhattan are far pricier. You've got to compare apples to apples. Are you really that upset at the prices, especially since you appear to have no interest in ever living there anyway? Two, you continue to discredit yourself by using such hyperbole as "toxic wasteland." If LIC is a "toxic wasteland," what is Chelsea? A radioactive warzone? Come on.

"People from Manhattan come over to enjoy the parks and the WTB"

You mean OTB?

And why would anyone travel from Manhattan - with all its own parks, not to mention the Central one - travel to Queens to see Gantry Plaza State Park? I bet if you stepped outside right now and asked random Manhattanites if they know what or where Gantry Plaza State Park is, 99% of them would say no.

You bridge and tunnel set are really deluded about what you're saddled with.

The same reason why people go to Canada to see Niagara falls which is located in the US.

http://z.about.com/d/queens/1/0/w/C/gantry-view.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zp8Fn_8Lico/RoJZLPRNsNI/AAAAAAAABKo/uakGT-W5yRY/s400/hp_un_park.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/108612027_6ad828ddbd.jpg?v=0

And WTB stands for Water Taxi Beach.

It's also one of the more popular places to be during July 4th's firework celebration.

Very nice.

http://www.nywatertaxi.com/water-taxi-beach/

Didn't even notice it when i was over there a few weekends ago.

Niagara Falls is located in both the US and in Canada. Canada has the better falls, so people come to the US side to see it.

My point and your pictures prove what I have long said: Live in Long Island City, have a gorgeous view of where you REALLY want to live: Manhattan.

If that were not true, why would LICC and ericho post so much about Manhattan real estate?

"Water Taxi Beach"? What an enticing name!

The new park is located on the far right. This picture looks like it was taken last year.

http://gantryparkfriend.googlepages.com/GPoverview.jpg/GPoverview-full.jpg

Very nice.

this is really funny--steve vs a bunch of lic owners way underwater

wouldn't worry re toxicity--i'd worry about your money that has evaporated

wtb=cheese show....yours!!!

"Niagara Falls is located in both the US and in Canada. Canada has the better falls, so people come to the US side to see it."

You really need to step out of Chelsea and see the world. The best Fall in Niagara are on the US side. I've been to the falls a dozen time and 99% of the people going there to see it is over in Canada.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/464984262_ec7d649761.jpg

I don't own in LIC.
I was there a few weekends ago for the first time and was surprised by what i saw in this community. It was a lot more than what i have expected. I believe most people that hate the area never even been there.

"My point and your pictures prove what I have long said: Live in Long Island City, have a gorgeous view of where you REALLY want to live: Manhattan."

Steve, it's one stop from Manhattan on the 7 train. Does it really matter?
New developments are at 600 psf. New developments in Manhattan are 1,200?

ericho - that picture is of the CANADIAN falls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagara_Falls

The horseshoe falls are in Canada.

Yup InF:

http://gantryparkfriend.googlepages.com/GPoverview.jpg/GPoverview-full.jpg

GREAT PARK!

NO COMPARISON to Central Park, or Prospect Park, or the Botanical Gardens in the Bronx, none of which feature TWIN DERRICKS as their centerpiece.

Damn. The things we miss not going to Gantry.

Steve,
Not my argument, but this is from your own link...

"Niagara Falls, as viewed from Canada, with the American and Bridal Veil falls on the left, and Horseshoe Falls on the right."

You're right, InF - I misspoke about where you need to stand. But the horseshoe falls is in Canada.

"I bet if you stepped outside right now and asked random Manhattanites if they know what or where Gantry Plaza State Park is, 99% of them would say no. You bridge and tunnel set are really deluded about what you're saddled with."
"My point and your pictures prove what I have long said: Live in Long Island City, have a gorgeous view of where you REALLY want to live: Manhattan.
If that were not true, why would LICC and ericho post so much about Manhattan real estate?"

It's funny - many people move to New York precisely to get away from people like this who think so narrow-mindedly. It's apparently never struck you that some people prefer not living in Manhattan, that this board is about real estate throughout the city, and that people actually do like to explore and know their city rather than stay cooped up in the apartment and never leave their neighborhood. What a boor.

The horseshoe falls is in Canada technically but you still have to be IN Canada to see it. The best part of the falls is still over in the US side and you still need to be IN Canada to see it.

"The Canadian side has the best panoramic view of the entire falls and has many commercial tourist attractions. The US side has many nice walks along the rim of the falls, great picnic areas and less commercial tourist attractions. To see them best, you need to view the falls from both sides of the border. Don't forget your passport!

http://www.usatourist.com/english/places/newyork/niagara.html"

Inf: want to see a great view? Better than Gantry State Park's?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kjh7r/100278667/

Location, location, location.

bjw - Let's just call it the Boor War then, shall we?

Again Steve, this goes to show how little you know about the world outside of Chelsea. Sad..

Nice pic Steve, did you take that from you cell?

"how little you know about the world outside of Chelsea"

Guess you're right, ericho - somebody who speaks 4 languages, has visited about 40 countries, lived in 4, been to about 35 states, knows nothing about the world outside of Chelsea. Good one!

No, InF - it's from the new place LICC is scoping out in San Francisco. He really wants to live in Oakland, though, because the views are so great.

"Guess you're right, ericho - somebody who speaks 4 languages, has visited about 40 countries, lived in 4, been to about 35 states, knows nothing about the world outside of Chelsea. Good one!"

Not to pick on you but after reading this thread, you've been proven wrong quite often.

> New developments are at 600 psf. New developments in Manhattan are 1,200?

There have already been documented here LIC developments higher than 600 psf, and Manhattan under $1200 psf. In fact, we already saw some fidi stuff closer to the 600 than the 1200... there are price points all over the place. And vast reductions in Manhattan are making it tough to justify a lot of the asking in LIC.

That being said, are you inferring that 50% of Manhattan prices is appropriate for LIC? Last time someone made a simliar claim, it was 70%. We just lost 20% of a shrinking pie.

> Steve, it's one stop from Manhattan on the 7 train. Does it really matter?

Only to people who don't confuse Hoboken with Manhattan.

> It's also one of the more popular places to be during July 4th's firework celebration.

Only to people who confuse the East and West sides of Manhattan. ;-)

At this pace, you'll need to learn 20 more languages, visit 120 more countries and live in 12 more countries before being on par. Lord help out this Chelseaian.

"fidi stuff closer to the 600"

Of cause, we're right back to 20 Pine while the average prices for new development is 1,200 in Manhattan. The average price in LIC is 600 P E R I O D.

It's always 20 pine and the 600 psf. The bulls been using the same 20 Pine for the last 6 months!!!!

Can we get something BESIDE 20 pine? I BEG YOU!!!
Please..it's been 3 months since our first debate on this. Give me something beside 20 pine!!!!

"I WANT THE TRUTH!!!"

"you've been proven wrong quite often."

Whenever I'm proven wrong I admit it. What LICC does is not "proof" - it's, "I won," without support.

"There have already been documented here LIC developments higher than 600 psf, and Manhattan under $1200 psf. In fact, we already saw some fidi stuff closer to the 600 than the 1200... there are price points all over the place. And vast reductions in Manhattan are making it tough to justify a lot of the asking in LIC."

Sure, we know about 20 Pine, but the vast majority are well above this. Click on the new devs section on this site to compare ppsf by neighborhood and by apt type (studio-4BR):
Financial District: $1,061 for studios, $1,402 for 1BRs, $1,267 for 2BRs, $1,526 for 3BRs
LIC: $712 for sutdios, $730 for 1BRs, $681 for 2BRs, $746 for 3BRs

Let's get real, they're not really asking "Manhattan prices" in LIC.

I probably can get to Central Park faster than steve can. From leaving LIC to setting foot in Central Park would probably take about 15 minutes.

If nyc10022 actually lives in that zip code, then he lives in Midtown east, probably in the 50s, which means he lives in the middle of a bunch of office buildings. Do you really think I would rather pay 40% more to live there?

Actually, I thought of a good question for LICC:

LICC, would you move to Oakland to get a good view of San Francisco, given that it's only 1 subway stop away?

steve's been proven wrong more times than people can count. The funniest times are like in this thread, when he is shown to be woefully wrong, but he can't admit it so he makes a fool of himself even more by trying to twist what he said and making things up.

"LICC, would you move to Oakland to get a good view of San Francisco, given that it's only 1 subway stop away?"

Interesting question.
I would if prices are 50% cheaper and the area in Oakland has a nice family community, good parks and 5 minutes away SF.

"I probably can get to Central Park faster than steve can. From leaving LIC to setting foot in Central Park would probably take about 15 minutes."

It takes me 7. And 7 to get to Bed Bath and Beyond, and Best Buy, and Staples, and the bank and the drugstore.

And I'm counting the time it takes me to take the elevator, & wait for the train. You can wait more than 15 minutes for a #7 train to come by, and they're almost always jammed.

Let's race, LICC: I'll walk to Central Park, you do the same. See who gets there first.

Oakland is not a 5 minute subway stop to San Francisco steve. But thanks for proving the point above that you are narrow-minded and don't get out much.

The 7 is one of the most reliable trains in the system, but thanks for another lie from the steve the liar clown.

I can get to any of those stores in under 10 minutes as well. steve's dumb arguments just keep coming.

I never said that Oakland was 5 minutes from San Francisco. I said it was ONE SUBWAY (Bart) stop away.

And the VIEWS ARE AMAZING - OF SAN FRANCISCO and THE GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE (which you can't see from most of San Francisco) not to mention THE BAY BRIDGE, ALCATRAZ, I could go on.

So if view is what you're looking for, LICC - why not?

"It takes me 7. And 7 to get to Bed Bath and Beyond, and Best Buy, and Staples, and the bank and the drugstore."

7? Door to door? I sincerely doubt it unless you live in the 14th St station (which is possible). But ignoring that, are you trumpeting proximity to big-box chain stores? Hilarious.

Of course it takes steve the liar more than 7 minutes. The man is a habitual liar.

The BART is not a subway. That is like calling the Long Island Rail Road or the Metro North a subway. However, if I wanted to live in the San Francisco area, and there was a great neighborhood with smart, fun, young residents, great waterfront parks, great new condos, a cool museum, good arts scene, good restaurants, cafes etc., with amazing views that was a 5 minute ride from the heart of San Francisco - sure, I would consider living there.

Steve,
You're missing the point. Beside the view, the community is quite nice in LIC. Why do you continue to paint a picture of a place with such negativity even though you're never been there before? Just look at all those pictures of LIC (Hunter's point). How does it compare to Alcatraz in any way? I don't even live in LIC, but your comments are so out of line it's incredible.

You can get to ANY of those stores in 10 minutes, LICC? How, when there isn't a Bed Bath and Beyond for miles - either Rego Park or East Elmhurst?

And I'M a liar?

And the closest Best Buy is in Woodside?

And I'M a liar?

Please! You try to make this place out to be Shangri-La, deny that it's sandwiched between the LIE, the Newtown Creek, the Queensbridge Houses and a rail yard (all of which I've more than proved), claim that people visit the place who've never heard of it, note the wonderful new park whose main feature seems to be 2 derricks, and that you can get to Central Park in 15 minutes when it probably takes you that long to take a bus to the subway station (because walking is too dangerous).

"Why do you continue to paint a picture of a place with such negativity even though you're never been there before?"

I have been there, and recently, too, and a friend of mine was considering buying property there until he saw there was nothing there.

The BART, FYI, LICC, uses the exact same trains (and design) as the Washington, DC subway. It uses subway cars, not railroad cars. It's a light railway, nothing at all like what Metro North and the LIRR are. EXACTLY like a subway or the PATH.

How long do you think it takes to take the number 1 train from 23rd Street to 59th Street?

About 5 minutes: 23rd, 28th, 34th, 42nd, 50th, then 59th Street stations.

Steve, the only thing you've "proved" is that you're obsessed with LIC and will stop at nothing to ignore its pluses and exaggerate/lie about its minuses. Nice work buddy!

There is no way the 1 train can go from 23rd street to 59th street while making 4 stops along the way in 5 minutes. On average, after every stop the train doors will open and close within 30-40 seconds...No way brother.

"I have been there, and recently, too, and a friend of mine was considering buying property there until he saw there was nothing there."

Which development was he looking at? You don't even know where Gantry Park is, how can you even say you're been there?

Best Buy is on 44th and 5th and a Bed Bath and Beyond on 61st and 1st. And, if I wanted to go to the ones in Queens, I can hop in my car and get to those in less than 15 minutes.

The LIE runs along Borden Avenue and stops before Vernon Boulevard. It doesn't "sandwich" LIC.
InFamous lives in Manhattan, and he and his wife visited the park in LIC. The Water Taxi Beach is known for getting a Manhattan after-work crowd mixed in with the LIC crowd. Now you are saying that the piers that extend out into the river are negatives? Also, the park area north of the piers is predominantly grassy. Just look at the link in my first post.

I can easily get to Central Park in 15 minutes. I can get to the Metropolitan Museum within 20. However long it takes to get there from Grand Central, just add 5 minutes and that is how long it takes me.

But thanks for another idiotic comment steve.

"Best Buy is on 44th and 5th and a Bed Bath and Beyond on 61st and 1st."

So you have to come to MANHATTAN to get where you want to go?

Hmm.

"The LIE runs along Borden Avenue and stops before Vernon Boulevard. It doesn't "sandwich" LIC."

The LIE "stops"? Really? I think it keeps on going to about Shirley, though the traffic might stop along the way.

"The Water Taxi Beach is known for getting a Manhattan after-work crowd mixed"

Manhattan again, ha?

"Now you are saying that the piers that extend out into the river are negatives?"

Just the derricks, unless you try to claim that they're actually jungle jims.

"I can get to the Metropolitan Museum within 20."

Really? How do you do it when the closest subway stop is at 86th and Lex, which is nearly a 15 minute walk to the museum itself?

You'd have to take the #7 to Grand Central, then switch to the uptown IRT to 86th Street, then walk across town to get to the museum. It would take you minimum an hour. It takes me 45 minutes to get to the Comic Strip from my house, and all I need to do is to walk to Lexington Avenue.

Dude, your lies are becoming more and more obvious. How long does it take you to walk or take a bus to the nearest subway stop?

"I probably can get to Central Park faster than steve can. From leaving LIC to setting foot in Central Park would probably take about 15 minutes."

I can walk to Central Park in about the time it takes you to get to the subway. What else you got?

"If nyc10022 actually lives in that zip code, then he lives in Midtown east, probably in the 50s, which means he lives in the middle of a bunch of office buildings. Do you really think I would rather pay 40% more to live there?"

If all LICC has left is the "well, what *I* would pay" line, I think he's pretty much conceding the point. The math shows he's in the vast minority.

"I can easily get to Central Park in 15 minutes. I can get to the Metropolitan Museum within 20. However long it takes to get there from Grand Central, just add 5 minutes and that is how long it takes me."

How long does it take you to get to Chelsea?
;-)

People in Hoboken can get places in Manhattan fast, too.

"And the VIEWS ARE AMAZING - OF SAN FRANCISCO and THE GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE (which you can't see from most of San Francisco) not to mention THE BAY BRIDGE, ALCATRAZ, I could go on."

"LICC, just like oakland without the baseball"

nyc, from my house I've walked to Central Park many times. I ALWAYS walk to Penn Station - it takes about 5 more minutes than navigating the subway.

LICC is full of sh*t. NO WAY he can get to any of those places in that amount of time. A friend of mine reverse-commuted to White Plains, it took him forever to get to Grand Central: 1 to the 7 or shuttle (if you could get on them), then the long walk in the station.

There is NOTHING desirable about Long Island City. Nothing. If there were I'd say there was. Riverdale is nice, Kew Gardens is nice, Forest Hills is beautiful: lots of places outside of Manhattan are nice, and convenient. But LIC ain't one of 'em.

"You'd have to take the #7 to Grand Central, then switch to the uptown IRT to 86th Street, then walk across town to get to the museum. It would take you minimum an hour"

Well, FWIW, Google maps says between 24 and 26 mins.

"There is NOTHING desirable about Long Island City. Nothing."

Totally your opinion. Plenty of other people clearly think otherwise. Do you understand that your opinion is not fact, especially when it's so clearly biased?

I'm not saying LIC is a horrible place. But it does need some work. And, even at its best, its still not going to be Manhattan, and the values will always suffer (or choose whatever word you want to mean 'less than') accordingly.

You'll be close to things, sure. You'll get more "bang for the buck". Sure... all those things that always apply to those edge cities. But Oakland is not SF, Hoboken is not Manhattan, and neither is LIC. Not saying that has to make it bad - it doesn't - but its always going to be a discount unless it ends up having a locale draw of its own (which LIC simply doesn't).

I think Hoboken is pretty nice. They've really built up since it was the fratty, smally on sunday morning party zone. Its a really nice spot nowadays. And I'm sure there will always be folks to fill it. Of course, doing so at a price significantly less than that in Manhattan.

"I would if prices are 50% cheaper and the area in Oakland has a nice family community, good parks and 5 minutes away SF."

So, are we agreeing to this? LIC now running 50% of Manhattan prices, where the old claim was 70%?

I don't think thats actually too far off...

FWIW = FWIW. The subway trip might take you that long - I agree with that - but you have to get to and from the subway.

Let's see, 5 minutes to Grand Central, get on the 4 or 5 uptown (say 2-3 minutes), two stops to 86th street (I don't know - 7 minutes?). I'm young steve, it doesn't take me 15 minutes to walk 3 blocks. Okay, let's assume I really take my time walking - 22 minutes.

Actually, the derricks are pretty cool. They light them up at night and they look great.

I don't HAVE to go anywhere. I can easily get to wherever I want to go, whether Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, or wherever.

steve the liar clown just keeps spinning, and spinning, and spinning . . .

"The subway trip might take you that long - I agree with that - but you have to get to and from the subway."

Steve, I included that time. Anything else to add? See how you like to distort and exaggerate things? An hour, minimum? Get real.

"I'm not saying LIC is a horrible place. But it does need some work. And, even at its best, its still not going to be Manhattan, and the values will always suffer (or choose whatever word you want to mean 'less than') accordingly.
You'll be close to things, sure. You'll get more "bang for the buck". Sure... all those things that always apply to those edge cities. But Oakland is not SF, Hoboken is not Manhattan, and neither is LIC. Not saying that has to make it bad - it doesn't - but its always going to be a discount unless it ends up having a locale draw of its own (which LIC simply doesn't).
I think Hoboken is pretty nice. They've really built up since it was the fratty, smally on sunday morning party zone. Its a really nice spot nowadays. And I'm sure there will always be folks to fill it. Of course, doing so at a price significantly less than that in Manhattan."

nyc10022, great post - finally someone injects a little reason here. I wholeheartedly agree, though I think the more optimistic among us might argue that LIC will have its own draws (PS1, Water Taxi Beach, the park being a decent start), but yeah, there's still plenty of work to be done.

"5 minutes to Grand Central"

You never wait for the train?

"get on the 4 or 5 uptown (say 2-3 minutes)"

You beam yourself from the 7 platform to the IRT?

Never wait for the train?

Don't have to walk from the station to the museum?

You're VERY SELECTIVE in how you count your time.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-7-subway-train-flushing

"Let's see, 5 minutes to Grand Central, get on the 4 or 5 uptown (say 2-3 minutes), two stops to 86th street (I don't know - 7 minutes?). I'm young steve, it doesn't take me 15 minutes to walk 3 blocks. Okay, let's assume I really take my time walking - 22 minutes."

Just waiting for 2 different trains can take you 20 minutes, particularly off peak.

"I can easily get to wherever I want to go, whether Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, or wherever."
Now you sound like Alpine.

;-)

New development prices in Hunter's Point LIC have been pretty steady over the past 3 months...avg. asking price is about 600-650 psf everywhere you look.

The way you count travel time, LICC, is the same way as you count housing expenses: include all the factors that you need to get the result you want, and forget or deny the rest.

"it doesn't take me 15 minutes to walk 3 blocks"

It will to walk those cross-town blocks from the station to the museum. If you miss the light crossing Park Avenue alone can take 3 minutes to cross.

"nyc10022, great post - finally someone injects a little reason here. I wholeheartedly agree, though I think the more optimistic among us might argue that LIC will have its own draws (PS1, Water Taxi Beach, the park being a decent start), but yeah, there's still plenty of work to be done."

I remember the MOMA in LIC years, and the staff considered that a mega bust (but of course necessary). I'm not saying there won't be one off draws, but those are the kinds of things every city will have. Oakland has two teams in one stadium! I just mean the big D draw.... I don't think Water Taxi beach is going to have a massive pull on RE values.... and same for the seaport version. There will be one off stuff, sure, but I mean stuff to make it anything other than a traditional "edge area" type pitch.

Basically, I just mean that unless LIC can improve its pitch to something other than "close to Manhattan, yet more [adjectives that describe suburbs]", I think the upper limit is 50% of Manhattan.

"You're VERY SELECTIVE in how you count your time."

You're still totally ignoring what I posted earlier. Even with the walks and waiting for trains, LICC was way closer than you to how long it should take to get to the Met from LIC. But you'll ignore fact and reason even when it stares you in the face right?

"Just waiting for 2 different trains can take you 20 minutes, particularly off peak."

On a bad day, yeah. Also, why would you go to the Met on off-peak hours? It's closed.

Yes, I am assuming the trains aren't delayed, which would affect anyone taking them, whether or not they live in Manhattan.

From the 7 in Grand Central, you just walk a flight of stairs to get to the 4, 5 or 6 platform. You guys must move very slowly if it takes you 20 minutes to switch trains.

Those crosstown blocks west of 3rd Avenue are pretty short on the UES. It isn't like walking 5th to 6th or 6th to 7th in midtown.

steve, no one believes you. Because you are a liar.

"Basically, I just mean that unless LIC can improve its pitch to something other than "close to Manhattan, yet more [adjectives that describe suburbs]", I think the upper limit is 50% of Manhattan."

But that's the pitch in all fringe neighborhoods (dumbo, Williamsburg, park slope, LIC). It's cheaper, close to Manhattan and incredible Manhattan skyline views. For dumbo & Park Slope it's Fidi, for WB it's Union Square.

"On a bad day, yeah. Also, why would you go to the Met on off-peak hours? It's closed."

LOL

If you really think about it, beside the additional shops by Steve's doorstep LIC trumps Chelsea in every way.

Better view
Better Park
Better air and less pollution (compare cancer risk rates)
Closer to work (if you work in midtown)
Less crime

"I am assuming the trains aren't delayed, which would affect anyone taking them, whether or not they live in Manhattan."

So am I. I'm assuming you don't have to WAIT for them.

"Those crosstown blocks west of 3rd Avenue are pretty short on the UES."

When was the last time you walked from Lexington to 5th? It's quite the hike from the train station to the Met.

"It isn't like walking 5th to 6th or 6th to 7th in midtown."

Those are very short blocks, actually

Another liar clown statement from steve.

The distance from Lex to 5th on the UES is probably about the same as from 6th to 7th on 50th Street.

"I'm not saying there won't be one off draws, but those are the kinds of things every city will have. Oakland has two teams in one stadium! I just mean the big D draw.... I don't think Water Taxi beach is going to have a massive pull on RE values.... and same for the seaport version. There will be one off stuff, sure, but I mean stuff to make it anything other than a traditional "edge area" type pitch."

I hear you. I guess it depends on whom the "big D draw" is for? If it's tourists, no it'll almost surely never compete with Times Sq, the Met, Rockefeller, etc. If you're talking locals, then yeah, there's only those handful of things that are unique to LIC so far. I think that's true of a lot of neighborhoods though - I mean, what's in Chelsea that's that kind of draw? Some nice restaurants, galleries, but really there's nothing there that screams at me. The UES and UWS have the museums and park, downtown has the food, shopping, nightlife (to be a bit reductive) and that's the kind of things we're talking about I presume?

I just checked a map. 5th to 6th Avenue in midtown is actually longer than 6th to 7th. The distance from Lex to Madison to Park to Fifth on the UES is a little more than 100 feet longer than the distance between 5th to 6th in midtown. The distance from 5th to 7th is considerably longer than from Lex to 5th.

99% of it is... its Manhattan. And essentially a walk from all the things you go for in Manhattan. Much of the draw of being in Manhattan is, for lack of a better term, just being in Manhattan. Call it "the energy" or whatever folks want to call it, I think its something thats hard to miss.

It is partially the tourist stuff. Some of it isn't exclusive. Central Park gets all the tourists, but then its a big D draw for locals, too (too much so, if you bike or run!). And as much as locals will complain about the tourists, we're glad to know they still want us, even if we don't want them on our block.

In terms of specific neighborhoods... just what first comes to mind. Chelsea is the heart of the arts scene in the biggests art scene city in the US. The heart of the NYC monied gay community (partially taken over from areas south), which is probably the biggest in the world. I'm not gay, but its pretty clear to see that that is an absolute destination. Also, the high line IMHO is going to have a huge impact. And that its becoming the hip tech spot (lots are following google down). And I'm saying this, and Chelsea still isn't in my list of favorite neighborhoods.

UES/UWS = Central Park. Pretty simple there. UES to me also defines money pre-war, and you're not is going to top the old mansions off the park. And, museum mile. We're not talking about PS1, we're talking about by far the most art-prolific stretch of street, all at the edge of a park. And the two premier shopping districts in the world (depending on which measure you choose) is 57th and 5th, followed slightly by Madison. You're talking world class.

Actually, there is an important word. I think thats the difference. World class. Even if its only 2% better, there is something to the "best in class" concept. Why folks will pay 3x for a 10% better car.

And, proximity. Its an island. Even if nothing is next to you, being "in the middle" has incredible value.

> "It isn't like walking 5th to 6th or 6th to 7th in midtown."
> Those are very short blocks, actually

Actually, no... 5th to 6th is by far the longest avenue to avenue block when talking consecutive streets. its longer than any other number ave to the number ave below or above it.

"I just checked a map. 5th to 6th Avenue in midtown is actually longer than 6th to 7th. The distance from Lex to Madison to Park to Fifth on the UES is a little more than 100 feet longer than the distance between 5th to 6th in midtown. The distance from 5th to 7th is considerably longer than from Lex to 5th.'

I had already posted before I saw this, but this is correct. 5 to 6 is the longest by far. Lex to Park I know well, and its a fraction of it.

Great point bjw. If by "big draw" they mean some cultural attraction or institution in walking distance to where you live, what would Chelsea have that is so big? Yes, there are some nice restaurants, etc., and buildings, but what else?

Chelsea has the longest damn blocks in the city. Walking from 10th to 7th on 23rd takes about two hours.

"Chelsea is the heart of the arts scene in the biggests art scene city in the US. The heart of the NYC monied gay community (partially taken over from areas south), which is probably the biggest in the world. I'm not gay, but its pretty clear to see that that is an absolute destination. Also, the high line IMHO is going to have a huge impact. And that its becoming the hip tech spot (lots are following google down). And I'm saying this, and Chelsea still isn't in my list of favorite neighborhoods."

I agree with you on most of that, except the arts thing. Chelsea still has a strong arts scene as far as I can tell, but it's no longer the heart. Brooklyn is clearly the heart now, in terms of music as well. But the rest, yeah, though High Line for now is really more associated with the Meatpacking District, I'd say.

JuiceMan, put new tennis balls on your walker - it'll speed things up.

LICC - according to the MTA, minimum 29 minutes travel time from Vernon Jackson Square to the Met, IF you don't have to wait for a train.

Add five minutes on each end for a train to come - you get 49 minutes DURING RUSH HOUR. During non-rush it'll be even more.

Don't believe me, here's the MTA's opinion:

From: Vernon Boulevard - Jackson Avenue

To: Metropolitan Museum of Art

Departing 07/09/09 5:05 pm
Option 1 - Regular Fare $2.25 - Reduced Fare $1.10; Total Transit Time: 29 minutes

Click to Map This Option
Walk 0.09 miles (2 minutes) South to VERNON BLVD - JACKSON AV STATION 7 line

Take the 42ND ST - TIMES SQ bound 7 line Train departing at 5:07 PM
Arrive at 42ND ST -GRAND CENTRAL 4 line 5 line 6 line 7 line S line METRO-N at 5:11 PM

VERNON BLVD - JACKSON AV STATION 7 line

Take the:
42ND ST - TIMES SQ bound 7 line Train

Leaving At: 5:07 PM

To:
42ND ST -GRAND CENTRAL 4 line 5 line 6 line 7 line S line METRO-N

Arriving At: 5:11 PM
Transfer to the PELHAM BAY PARK- EXPRESS bound 6 line Train departing at 5:17 PM
Get off at 77TH ST STATION 6 line at 5:24 PM

42ND ST -GRAND CENTRAL 4 line 5 line 6 line 7 line S line METRO-N

Take the:
PELHAM BAY PARK- EXPRESS bound 6 line Train

Leaving At: 5:17 PM

To:
77TH ST STATION 6 line

Arriving At: 5:24 PM
Walk 0.50 miles Northwest to destination

http://tripplanner.mta.info/subway_map/map/interactiveSubwayMap.aspx

Also agree with you on UES/UWS (pretty much what I said above), but I'd say the 57th St area (which is really midtown) is the "world-class" shopping area. Madison, at least for now, is done (and this is coming from someone who used to live on the damn street). The downtown shopping throughfares are a bigger draw I think.

Steve, why would you take the 6 to get there when the 4/5 is faster? And why do you assume the 29 minutes is a "minimum"? Your bs on this thread is starting to border on legendary.

I didn't "assume" anything, bjw. The MTA has determined that this is the fastest way to get there. Don't believe me, plug in the numbers yourself.

No Steve, nowhere does it say this would be the absolute minimum time. It factors in walking time and wait time for the next train. I plugged the numbers in myself! Now explain why you would take the 6 train instead of the 4/5?

It gives you 3 options, bjw. I picked the shortest one of the 3. The other ones were 31 minutes and 35 minutes. If you got a different answer, post it as I did. I didn't make it up.

It assumes perfect connections, no delays, and that you can even get on a 4, 5, or 6 train, which isn't always possible. Pick a weekend with less frequent service, the result will be worse.

45-50 minutes is a reasonable time to plan to get from Vernon Blvd. to the Met.

6 is the local. The 4 or 5 is the express - only 2 stops. Yes, if you take the local, add 5 or 6 minutes.

steve, thanks for confirming that I was right and that you are a clown.

In steve's world, the local trains are faster than the express trains.

steve is a glutton for embarrassment!!!

I'm glad someone who has never taken this route is telling someone who has that it takes twice as long as it actually does.

Do people not realize how long it takes from Grand Central to get to the Met Museum? Just add 7 or 8 minutes to know how long it takes from LIC!

"I agree with you on most of that, except the arts thing. Chelsea still has a strong arts scene as far as I can tell, but it's no longer the heart. Brooklyn is clearly the heart now, in terms of music as well."

Sorry, I wasn't clear... I mean art people pay for. ;-)
Seriously. I'm not talking about unemployed musicians, I'm talking about the fact that NYC is by far the biggest city in terms of art collectors (numbers just came out, that what I was thinking o) and that is where the gallery scene is. That is the absolute heart right now...

If we do live venues, NYC actually loses out to both Nashville and Austin.

"But the rest, yeah, though High Line for now is really more associated with the Meatpacking District, I'd say."

Only because they haven't finished it... they started at the bottom. It goes all the way to the 30s...

"6 is the local. The 4 or 5 is the express - only 2 stops"

Yes, but if you take the express train you have to walk farther than if you take the local train. And the "Trip Planner" takes into account the schedules of the trains.

And, if you've ever done it (I have hundreds of time) there's not that much of a difference between the two.

In fact, I tried and the MTA doesn't give a single trip using the other trains EXCEPT on the weekends when the express station is closed and you have to go to 125th Street and come back.

I plugged the information in for my address and it's also 10-15 minutes off.

"Do people not realize how long it takes from Grand Central to get to the Met Museum? Just add 7 or 8 minutes to know how long it takes from LIC!"

Having lived on this line for many years, this is only true in that broker speak way... you know, if you take the fastest train ever, which comes immediately, and then it stops short and launches you a ew blocks over (of course, not in the direction of the train).

It can take you 7-8 minutes just to leave the 86th street station and walk over to the park.

> 45-50 minutes is a reasonable time to plan to get from Vernon Blvd. to the Met.

I put in vernon and 47th and the met, and it came up with 37 minutes. Knowing hopstop and its accuracy, I figure to add 15% or so more on to that ( i looked up some other routes I know well)... so I think 45 minutes is *very* fair, and 50 minutes is probably what I'd tell people.

"And, if you've ever done it (I have hundreds of time) there's not that much of a difference between the two."

I've been saying this for years. Union square to 86th, for whatever reason - number of non-express stops, crowd levels - there is rarely a difference for me unless you're going end to end and beyond. If you're doing a portion of that, IMHO there is no noticeable difference. I timed 60th to 14th a number of times, and nada.

Hey, I just noticed.... hop stop says get out at 77th!