Glue vs. subfloor

I had a neighbor who had hardwood floors laid directly OVER developer installed parquet. While not the correct way to install a hardwood floor, the contractor had a solution for the front door--saw the bottom of the hollow metal door to clear the new floor. I assume you could use this solution if it allows you to get the floor you desire.

I can understand your aversion for laminates. But what is wrong with an engineered floor? It is real wood; only the core is comprised of multiple plys. It wears just as strongly as solid wood but has advantages in terms of directional stability and ease of installation, especially on top of concrete. With the right underlayment, you can float the floor on top of your existing floor without any problem whatsoever.

I don't understand why you think you can't put down a hardwood floor - real hardwood comes in different thicknesses - just go to any store that sells wood flooring. Seems as if you have plenty of clearance between your front door and whatever wood floor you put down.

Did someone say that you may get a clicking sound on a floated floor, I guess as you step on the top floor & it then comes in contact with the existing floor?

Just polish the concrete. Or get carpet. Hardwood floors are overrated. Don't most condo rules demand 80% of the floor area be carpeted? Having less carpet coverage is just rude to your downstairs neighbor.

PMG- unless you have radiant heat, concrete flooring pretty much sucks. And unless the unit gets tons of light and has tons of windows, concrete can turn an average apartment into a gloomy dungeon.

Couple days ago someone else was suggesting on a different post about using cork plank flooring. I thinks it's a good idea and perhaps the OP should take a look at it. It comes in many different stains and patterns. While first researching online and seeing "cork board" like color for the floors, don't get turned off right away, take a look at more stains and patterns. There are even some planks that look like wood floors.

"saw the bottom of the hollow metal door to clear the new floor."

a) I hope it wasn't really hollow: front doors need to be better "fire rated" than that. And if you just lop off the bottom of a front door, you probably ruin whatever fire rating it had.
b) Front doors* are actually fairly cheaply custom made by several companies in the Bronx. Probably wouldn't cost much more than taking off the old door, cutting it, re-finishing the bottom, etc.

* for the newer steel, flat slab with wood or other fire rating material inside. For older buildings with "fancier" doors than a flat slab, this isn't so easy.

"Did someone say that you may get a clicking sound on a floated floor, I guess as you step on the top floor & it then comes in contact with the existing floor?"

OMG. "Floating" floors don't really "float" ... it just means they're not glued or nailed down.

So.. Back to the original question... Glue down vs. sub-floor.

sub-floor > glue down.

my recommendation: if you have a specific question, ask a manhattan hardwood floor contractors, not SE message board posters

Go with a sub-floor. Glue downs are toxic (most part), gasses off voc, can buckle up and become undone, a b*tch to fix, a b*tch to undo - as you're probably well aware of.

But hey, if you talk with a hardwood floor contractor, they are like most sales people; their one main purpose is to sell you something, even if it is crap and expensive. If you're the type to listen to sales people and think they are knowledgeable about what they're selling, then go for it and be sorry. Or, do you do research before you talk to a sales guy and then can spot all their BS.

Um... I installed 1500sf of floating maple flooring in my house. There is no "clicking" sound when you walk on it. All you need for installation is the foam underlayment, wood glue (for the tongues/grooves), a hammer, a tape measure and a table saw. Couldn't have been simpler and the results are fantastic.

When you buy a product you don't speak to the sales rep? While any sales rep has an agenda, they also have product knowledge, which is more then I'm getting by reading this site.

"Did someone say that you may get a clicking sound on a floated floor, I guess as you step on the top floor & it then comes in contact with the existing floor?"

OMG. "Floating" floors don't really "float" ... it just means they're not glued or nailed down.
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The reason you may get an amplified clicking sound is that no matter how small, there is some air between the floor and the subfloor, often because many installers (correctly) install a layer of a felt-like material between them. Of course, this will also deaden some types of sound: sound it a funny thing and very difficult to deal with in that this, as many other things with sound, fixes/abatement for one type end up making other types worse.

So, ignoring PMG's clearly useless advice, how thick are sub-floors typically?
Clearly they can be different thicknesses, but if I have 1.5" of clearance, and the hardwood is say, .75", what thickness should the subfloor be?

What is the best way to secure a subfloor to the cement? Right now there is a nice layer of tar from the previous floor, and I'd love to avoid scraping it up.

Sub-floors are what ever is beneath your floors, usually just 3/4" thick plywood. There are store bought (Home Depot, Loews) that are around 2'x2' with rubber/plastic pegs on the bottom of a plywood.

You can lay down at least 6mm (1/4"), (minimum requirement in the EU building code) of cork as an underlayment, but 12mm (1/2") is much better. Do not use 3mm (1/8") cork - it's too thin and won't do anything. It is so thin that it WILL tear and break apart when laying it down as an underlayment. So, usually, instead of an even layer of underlayment covering the entire floor, it will be little patch work of broken and teared off cork that the lazy floor installers will place hoping the owner (you) won't notice, and won't notice unless you rip the floors off. This does nothing to deaden and soundproof your floors. The 1/2" cork do not come in rolls, but are instead come usually come in 2'x3' sheets.

If I were you I would use 1/4" or 1/2" of cork and SoundEater and then your choice of floor.
http://www.soundseal.com/impacta/soundeater.shtml

I think with the cork underlayment + soundeater + HWF might be higher than 1.5". But, if you skip the cork and just use soundeater + HWF - you might be alright. But, with the cork would still be better.

Thanks ProperService.

A total noob question: What is the best way to lay down a subfloor? Does it glue down? Nail in?

I'm starting to think sanding down the tar and just doing an insulation/floating floor might just be the best way to do this.

I'm a DIY noob... but, I've already torn down some walls and skim coated most of the remaining ones, so I figure I should be able to do a floor, too.

Insulation and floating the floor? What type of insulation are you using and how thick. Not doing things proper right now could bite you after you're all done with the work. Is sound deadening/soundproofing a concern of yours? There are many tutorials available for this sort of thing on the web. Just don't forget about laying the vapor barrier on the bottom and letting your wood/cork/bamboo acclimate for a few days with the boxes/plastic covering open. More the days better.

I'm not exactly sure you "need" a plywood sub-floor if you have a concrete floor (6"-8" solid?). I suppose you could use concrete screws or even explosive bolts.There are some other discussions on here about this sort of thing. Good luck.

"I'm not exactly sure you "need" a plywood sub-floor if you have a concrete floor (6"-8" solid?).I suppose you could use concrete screws or even explosive bolts"

So you're gonna see a couple of hundred "heads" exposed in the finished flooring? It used to be that way: if you look at pre-1870-ish wood flooring you see tons of tiny little nailheads in the parquet - but most modern flooring it "tongue in groove" where you shoot a staple/nail through the tongue into the subflooring. But my guess is that if you tried to concrete screws or explosive bolts through the tongue of tongue in groove flooring, you'd ruin it.

I had this issue when replacing marble with hardwood -- add subfloor and we had a front door issue. I bought new metal front doors....

^---- no, no, no... we're not talking about the same thing and I most definitely do not mean what you wrote about "concrete screws or explosive bolts through the tongue of tongue in groove flooring". The op said he wants to float the floor, so no nailing the t&g down to the sub-floor; just click and snap on top of insulation of op's choice.

So where were you suggesting those "concrete screws or even explosive bolts" go? You're the pone who brought them up in lieu of a subfloor.

For christ's sake... what the hell is so difficult to understand? I'm not discussing this with you, & you're hi-jacking this this post from the op.

ignored! Shakes-head, rolls-eyes...

I see, you have no answer.

Can you people stop your petty bickering?! YOU PEOPLE.

ProperService: Would I be able to put down a 1/2" subfloor, and nail a 3/4th" hardwood floor to that without having clearance issue? There is a 1.5" gap between the concrete and the bottom of the door. How much gap do I need?

Also, how level does the surface need to be for the subfloor? Right now, as I mentioned, there is a good amount of tar from the previous glue down floor. I assume I can't glue down a subfloor onto that tar? If not, how do I get rid of the current tar? Sand it?

Thanks.

Forgive me if this was already answered, but I'm a novice. We're putting down an engineered floor, and our contractor gave us two, really three options:

1. (and 2.) Glue down the new floor on top of the existing parquet. We were told that pulling up the parquet and removing the thick glue isn't necessary and will add an additional week to the project and up to an additional $1500, though the contractor will do this if we want.

2. Float the new floor over the existing parquet. However, like other posters have noted, we were told this would potentially create a hollow clicking sound.

Any thoughts? Thank you very much.

rimnyc, The demo of parquet is the simplest (and messiest) part of the floor installation job. One unskilled worker can do at least 500 sf of demo in a day, including bagging and removal. You should have the engineered floor, including underlayment, directly installed on the concrete.

Thanks, PMG. Why is our contractor hesitant, assuming we're willing to pay the extra money?

Having done this myself for 1800 sq feet, you would be defeating yourself to do it quickly and incorrectly.

heavy long scrapper to push up old parquet. It took us 3 days. Then you scrape up old glue/tar (yeah its a pain) - 1 added day. Then 3/4" plywood sub floor, put down with Tapcons (use 1 3/4 length at minimum). You hammer drill hole for tapcon through plywood and concrete. Then router bigger hole for screw head. Then hammer screw the tapcom in, settle at even level with plywood.

Then you can start hardwood flooring. Tongue and grrove, and you staple down with gun along groove each piece of flooring. Alternate all sizes. There is no pattern. Along edges you will need to nail through top of wood to hold down, then you drive nail head slightly deeper than wood floor, and fill with color match wood filler.

Results are amazing. The stell dorr (and any internal doors) are cut/sanded and finished to provide clearance. The end result is AMAZING when done correctly.

Rimnyc,

1. Removing the old parquet is hardly the easiest part. Laying the floor actually is the easy part. Sometimes removing the floor could be far more difficult then expected as you don't know what is under the floor. You must make sure all the glue and perhaps others materials are really cleaned from the floor. On some occasions it has to be removed with a machine. If you glue down the floor to a slab that is not cleaned correctly the floor can pop in a short amount of time.

You can glue down an engineered floor to concrete but I would still install a plywood subfloor if it is in the budget

any recomendations for a brand of engineered floor ?

kehoeba, thank you for your feedback, though it reads like Greek to me.

Primer, you always have something valuable to add--thanks.

"Why is our contractor hesitant, assuming we're willing to pay the extra money? "

I don't like this. IMO, your contractor should tell you what the correct & best procedure is & then do it. Esply true for a floor, which you'll probly keep as is for the next 20 years. Seems like he's offering a halfazz solution.

dwell, I'm beginning to wonder that myself. He told us this morning that the last three apartments in the building (Park West Village) whose floors he changed were on top of the parquet. He did show me two of them earlier in the process, and--maybe I don't know what to look for--they were lovely. No observable problems with the floor. Rather than ascribe evil intent to the contractor, though, I'm trying to approach this from his possible perspective: He's now renovated about ten apartments in the building and perhaps understands that most of the residents cannot afford the top-end renovations that a more upmarket contractor might do. Is that likely?

rlm,
IMO, I'd ditch this guy. Look, you're depending on his expertise, he should tell you what to do, not the other way round. I don't like his wishiwashiness. He should tell you the right method, it's not for you to guess, so you can save $2k.

There's a great floor installing company in east harlem, run by an Irish family. I can't recall the name, but I've used them twice & they were great. Tried to google, but can't find them. Think it's called 'NY flooring' or something like that. Maybe someone here knows who I'm thinking of.

good luck

My advice, get a second opinion and bid from Mykola at Floor Store of West End. He's really good, reliable, and is invested in the immediate west side neighborhood. He contracts out excellent work, pays daily attention to the job, plus he operates a small showroom @W 96th Street. He will give you solid advice: 212 222 9115. He replaced my floors. You will not be sorry.

"perhaps understands that most of the residents cannot afford the top-end renovations that a more upmarket contractor might do."

I am of the opinion that when you do a reno for things that you'll keep for 20+ yrs, ya have to make sure that the guy you use is doing the procedure correctly. Yes, it may cost more, but, balance your budget by using less expensive cabinets or floors. So, to save $ on floors, use oak at the lower end of the price range. I forget the range #s, but a good flooring company will tell you.

this might be the place: http://www.eastsidefloors.com/

yes, this is the company I used. They know what they're doing & prices were good:

http://www.eastsidefloors.com/installation.html

Mykola of Floor Store of West End will let you bring showroom samples to your apartment for color check, and he will personally deliver baseboard samples if you want something he doesn't stock. This guy is young, knowledgeable and motivated. He is invested in the immediate neighborhood of Park West Village. He's smart, priced well and good to work with.

Half the contractors I met suggested that I was fine just glueing the engineered floor over the existing parquet. Since it seemed like a few experts said it was fine, I went ahead and did it that way...no complaints. The floor looks great and no clicking sound as you would have if you floated it.

In an attempt to do some additional research, I phoned three SE-recommended flooring companies to ask their unbiased opinions: Pianeta Leno, New York Flooring, and Eastside Flooring. Here are the results of my unofficial survey: Pianeta Leno said that they absolutely recommend installing on top of the existing parquet. New York Flooring said that they absolutely recommend ripping up the parquet. Eastside Flooring said that it was an intersting question and they could go either way. Unenlightening.

Rim,

I usually do rip up the floor BUT if the old parquet wood flooring is sound you can use it as a subfloor. I would not be so quick to fire a contractor as you would then have to go through the whole process of looking for a new one and then they may or may not be good. Try to work it out with the one you have now.

If you really want a 2nd opinion so you can tell your contractor what to do I would be happy to stop by just to tell you what I think.I am all over the city everyday, one extra stop won't kill me

The way my 1980-era parquet popped up so readily, I know I wouldn't want THAT as a subfloor. Maybe the parquet in the early 1960s was more solidly adhered.

Primer, I don't think we'd have the luxury of dismissing the contractor at this point, even if we'd want to. The apartment is unihabitable as it is. Thanks again for your feedback and offer.

mdasch, I haven't a clue how glued down those suckers are.

As I'm now well on my way to crazy (and it's not a long trip to start), I'm going to punt the decision to my husband (Husband, are you reading this?) I really don't care whether we replace the floors, and the current parquet is in good condition (as observed by several RE-related professionals). This way, if we don't do the floors, the current floor will be fine. If we do the floors and they're a big mistake, I can tell him that I told him so. Seems like a good strategy.

Rim,

I do not think that is a good strategy. If you do not do the floors now when will you? This is the best time to do it. Once you move in too late

Primer's right. I redid floors after I moved in and it was a bit of a hassle. It's not impossible, but you have to 85% move-out again to free up work space. Another option is to crowd furniture from room to room to redo the floors later without a move-out but that assumes you have extra rooms. Trust your contractor and move forward as he recommends. You'll enjoy the new floors.

Yes, of course you're right, Primer. But I still like the idea of saying, "I told you so."

whatever you say, dear.

Rimnyc,

You will have plenty of opportunities to say that.

I just want to thank all of you who gave me feedback. Husband and I made a decision about floors after hanging out in the uninhabitable apartment last night for an hour, speaking with a neighbor on the same floor whose apartment the same contractor just completed before ours (and examining his floors), speaking with our contractor again, reviewing all the feedback to date and just generally wringing our hands. We made a decision, feel good about it, and are closing the proverbial door to other information at this time in order to avoid any cognitive dissonance. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts.