Opinions on Astor Court?

It's got a beautiful interior garden.

Love it!

Nothing to hate about this building (unless you need to be zoned for a good PS).

Where do you get your information nyc10023?

PS84 is zoned on the 90th st side and from all accounts is an up and coming school.
http://insideschools.org/index12.php?fso=73

PS 166 is zoned on the 89th St side and is highly rated.
http://insideschools.org/index12.php?fso=80

Spinnaker: with all due respect, one shouldn't rely too much on insideschools. They put the most +ve spin they can on schools. Things I would consider:

1) # of kids attending from in-zone vs. out-of-zone
2) # of kids on free lunch (yes, I know that Chinatown schools have simultaneously high levels of poverty & achievement, but such is not the situation on UWS).
3) Ethnic breakdown
4) Whether parents keep their kids in from K-5 and where those kids end up going to middle school. Many of these up-and-coming schools haven't hit the wall yet in terms of "middle class" parents keeping their kids all the way
through to 5. The demographics of lower grades may be diff. from upper grades.
5) Whether there is a classroom aide in the class, and class size. I can't imagine how difficult it is to get K kids
to read by the end of year w/o some kind of assistant to do all the grunt work.
6) What kind of educational background kids have when starting and how the school deals with different levels of ability? Flame away all you like but there is a world of different when kids go into K with some kind of
nursery experience and none at all. Also, how does the school deal with it when kid A can read chapter books by the end of 1st grade and kid B is still struggling with 3-letter words? This problem crops up even in the schools
that have great reputations (87, 199, etc.)
7) Parent community

And PS166 houses a G&T program.

our daughter didn't really read until the end of second grade, and she started K at 6. i really wonder what her experience would have been like in most public schools. and i'm not hating on the publics here, just curious to know if anyone has had a similar child whose reading learning style was able to be accomodated.

AR: They really push reading in K these days at public schools with "good reputations" - about a quarter of the K incoming at my child's public reads (most of these kids turned 5 at the beginning of the year). My feeling is that they push reading so they can move quickly to getting them prepped for the statewide tests in a couple of years.
I can't blame them as there is only one teacher (not counting the aide who is not a teacher) per 20-27 kids, the great
weakness of publics is the difficulty in teaching to the individual.

At least in a "good" public, you have parents who have the resources (time and/or money) to help their kids if they feel like the kid is falling behind or needs a little push. What do you do in 3rd grade, 4th grade in an up-and-coming
school if your child is well-behaved, not self-motivated and yet far from needing the most attention?

i don't blame them either. but it could have been not so good in our case. i'm not so sure i would have been able to accomplish it, and it is bizarre to me that she would have been a "problem" reader.

regarding the up-and-coming schools, i suspect there are winners and losers. you're far more connected to that world, but i'd think parents in the neighborhood would have a sense of how successfully a program is turning itself around or not? or is the proof in the final pudding?

The Inside Schools links were just convenient to post. Communities and schools are not static and those with great reputations didn't start out that way. The great PS87 is beginning to freak me out a little -3 principals in 6 years and 9 incoming K classes this year, yikes!

Interesting how famously liberal Upper West Side residents are all in favor of integration and equality but not when it comes to educating their own kids.

Kind of like how every politician in DC sends their kids to private schools while blocking vouchers for poor kids to do the same.

modern: guilty here as charged. so true.

Who said I was liberal?

Spinnaker, in defense of PS87:

1) Class sizes in K this year are small.
2) Staff turnover (aside from principals) is still low - a very desired place to teach compared to vast majority of NYC public schools.
3) Parent body is still the same - maybe more of a change from out-of-zone, middle class, educated, middle-aged parents to in-zone. One thing that never fails to surprise me is just how old the parents are compared to a generation ago.

It's by definition.

"Monolithic block of elitists":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBZ0s-qSC38

nyc10023 - re: your post on questions to ask about schools - really amazingly detailed and thoughtful. Having seen your posts about the UWS (particular neigbborhoods, streets,buildings apts. (coop/condo/rental) and particularly about considerations for parents, the thought occurred to me as to how you might disseminate this info, possibly commercially. Particularly as not everyone, especially relocating families, might be using SE/

Know you're very busy with two kids and third on the way, but I thought a small, self-published pamphlet, in local bookstore (are there any left?) or to brokers offices on the west side (though the brokers might hide them if the building really doesn't suit their clients needs, perticularly in regard to the zoned school of the property they're trying to sell.

So, thoughts of a business application sort of faded away. (Any good ideas out there?)

However,is there any way there could be an SE category - as in "so you're thinking of moving to the upper west side - with kids, kids in our future, single - things to consider. Possibly the same for the UES. (Tribeca is too small, not enough schools to factor in)

Right now, that info comes up on so many different posts on so many different threads that someone would have to be vary diligent to find them all.

And it would leave out opinions on whether it is a good or bad time to buy - leave that up to the readers to determine for themselves.

Victoria Goldman, the insideschools people & Parents League have already BTDT. Not to mention the gazillions of consultants that charge upwards of 10k for shepherding parents through private school application.

Hang around the playgrounds, preschool, kiddie classes as a parent and this is the zeitgeist. Just ask W81 - I'm not saying anything new or earthshaking.

Not to mention that I would be persona non grata in the kiddie circles if I published something like that.

But not everyone can "hang around the playgrounds,etc" - and might not went to if they are just starting a family. And you also focus on public schools, even more than on private schools, and many people head to the west side because they think the public schools are a viable option.

So, use a nom de plume.

"nyc10023" sounds like a Latina name.

aboutready,

1. Sweden's school system doesn't even try to teach kids to read until they're seven years old, and they wind up making very good mobile phones and herring dishes.

2. Public schools (at least the more together ones) provide extraordinary levels of additional support for kids with "different learning styles". Too many private schools will, um, decline to extend the contracts of those same kids, so as to cook their books nicely. I know of one little girl who, towards the end of kindergarten, was unable to hold her pencil "properly", so the prestigious UES private school "suggested" to her parents that she'd do better elsewhere.

AH: agree with both points. But Swedish demographics, culture <> NYC demographics, culture. Yes, private schools have the power to shape their student population. We're defacto doing that by living in a PLUD (people like us dear) district.

"But Swedish demographics,..."

hey, the educational system that keeps on being 1st from every perspective is the Finnish, not the Swedish (still good though, which unfortunately means... much better than USA). anyway, it shows that hurrying up with teaching anything is not the only way to do it. they have a weird language that nobody uses and yet... they succeed when taking english tests... the variance on performance between good and bad schools is nil. typical american excuse is that's a small country. check the variance on performance in a tiny island like manhattan. one of the huge differences with respect to USA is that they are proud of their education and being stupid is not cool. bulling is not cool either. they have very different values.

Demographics, not that it's a small or big country. The diversity in Manhattan is astonishing. I will gladly wager you that the cultural/social values of Finns from village to city, poor to rich are more in line than those within 3 mile radius of me.

ah, of course i'd concur that not all schools are the same, whether private or public. it's just that i've heard a number of stories over the last few years from parents in public schools who had this reading issue become much larger than it should have been.

Can we talk about Astor Court? I have the floorplans for the building, and have visited some open houses. This was a VERY high-quality apt building in the day (I think it was pre WW1). The original oak herringbone floors are amazing, with lots of tiger stripes & flecks. The most desired apts have views of the interior courtyard. The corner classic 6 (and 7) are two of the best 6/7 layouts on the UWS; extra-large LR open to DR with 3 exposures and an over 40' span.

bump - I just compared 5J & K to the typical floorplan and they are not the original apt letters, so they aren't adjacent. 5K is labelled J on my floorplan and 5J is L.

bump - I just compared 5J & K to the typical floorplan and they are not the original apt letters, so they aren't adjacent. 5K is labelled J on my floorplan and 5J is L.

Are there still many RS tenants in this building? Wondering as there have not been many sales, particularly of the larger 7/8's.

Looks as if the cut-ups may have been differently on different floors, and at different times, so letters vary. E.g., 5 and 9, IIRC.

i've heard that the board is difficult here.
not insane but difficult.

I've heard the penthouses are ridiculously cool.

At least 2 classic 8s have sold in the last 4 years (and there are only 4 classic 8s). I don't recall a 7 coming on the market in the last 4 years. Despite the relative scarcity of the 8es to the 7es, the 7es have better flow, entertaining space & exposures.

My bad, I've seen one classic 7 (in the flesh too). Sold for over 3m, beautifully renovated.

There is one floorplan for I think the unit you mentioned - the broker called it a classic 7, but it sure looked like a classic 8, (3 BR's, library, and what must have been the maid's incorporated into a large eat-in kitchen.

How did you pick up the number of classic 7's and 8's in the building? And also, is there any way, other than having the prospectus, to figure out how many apartments are still occupied by RS tenants?

I've been keeping track of 6+ room apts in the Astor ever since 11C went on the market.

And I have the floorplans for a typical floor. I haven't gone back to the NYT archives to check on the original # of C8s, C7s, but the floorplans I have indicate flrs 6 & 11 have C8s. Flr 2 - ? have 2 C7s apiece.

6A according to the plan I have is a classic 7. There was another one in the interim, 6B - also a 7.

Rising 13 stories above Broadway, the Astor Court has a reserved facade, except for its spectacular projecting copper cornice, originally stenciled with colored designs. The building's two lobbies have coffered ceilings set into low, curved vaults. The six-to-nine-room apartments originally rented for $1,600 to $3,200 a year, a bit high for the period but not outlandishly so.

Ripped from NYT archives. Apts were obviously split up at some time.

nyc -so the "carve outs", a term I was unfamiliar with, explain why the 2/2's are not really great (other than possibly ceiling heights? Actually, at least on the floorplans, fairly standard.

I guess it's the "uncarved" apartments which are the spectacular ones.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/471103-coop-210-west-90th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

another 2 bedroom just went on the market.

Layout, as they said is "functional" (9' wide bedroom?) - must be in bad shape as no mention of renovated anything. What does everyone think this will actually sell for?

The J line on most floors is a remnant of a classic 8 apt. The 9X15 room is a kitchen in the 8 room line.

I’m about 18 months late to this party, but if you’re still interested… I can address a number of comments posted here. I grew up in an Astor Court A-line apartment (classic 7 with the grand 30ft living room opening through French doors to the adjacent 18ft living room). I have relatives who live in a D-line apartment (classic 8). Only four classic 8s remain (6C, 6D, 11C, 11D). Originally there were four classic 8 lines (C, D, E, G), two classic 7 lines (A, B), one classic 6 line (H), and a 9-room line that included a library (F). According to a 2001 NY Times article by Christopher Gray (http://tinyurl.com/3slelx3), Henri Bendel bought the building in 1935 and divided many apartments into 1br’s and 2 br’s:

The entire E and F lines were divided into two 2br lines (today’s F and S lines) and two 1br lines (the E and the R lines).

The entire G line was divided into one 2br line (today’s G line) and one 1 br line (the I line). Interestingly, these conversions resulted in the classic 6 H line gaining a bathroom when the master bath from the original G layout was connected to the H line’s smaller second bedroom as an ensuite bath. This explains why the much larger H line master bedroom doesn’t have an ensuite bath. The original G was the only apartment line where the master bedroom was located in the entertaining wing of the apartment. Entry to the apartment was via a vestibule foyer witha door to the master bed on the left; similar to the B-line, the vestibule connected to a wider foyer with living room to the left, dining room to the right, and a door straight ahead to the back bedroom wing.

With the exception of floors 6 and 11, the C and D lines were divided into two 2br lines (today’s J and L lines) and two 1br lines (K and M).

nyc10023 – Yes, J/K/L/M on the 5th floor are unique. For some reason when the 5th floor C and D apartments were carved up they were configured differently than on other floors. Here J and K are 2brs (K occupies much of the footprint of what is a J on other floors; J here occupies much of what is an L on other floors), L and M are 1 brs. Yes, the J line’s narrow 9x15 bedroom was originally the C’s kitchen.

Only the A and B lines remain in their original configuration (and the H is original + the added bath).

I assume the conversion of the larger apartments to smaller happened over years rather than all at once as a consistent conversion plan. This could explain quirky little differences between the layouts: one H line apartments didn’t pick up the original G’s master bath, an F or two is missing a foyer closet that is gained as an extra closet in the E, a couple of J’s are missing a foyer closet that becomes an extra bedroom closet in the K, and there’s the whole 5th floor J/K/L/M that has its own totally different floor plan.

In the late 1970s and early 80s I used to play on the penthouse level’s huge open tiled roof. It was the perfect place for a game of tag, running around the entire U-shaped expanse, hiding behind the fire stairs towers. The tile roof was hugged by the old servants’ quarters and laundry rooms that ran along the outer perimeter of the building; they were locked up and used for storage. These rooms and most of the tile roof were converted to the numbered patio penthouse apartments just before the sponsor co-oped the building. (Penthouse A is the only original penthouse apartment. It was built as less glamorous than other apartments given its proximity to servants’ quarters and that its main entrance was past the service elevator. It did not have a maid’s room, windows facing 90th street were small squares below the cornice, and regular sized windows facing the courtyard and side of the building were raised considerably high off the floor, making it harder to see out of them.) Old floor plans show that the tile roof expanse parallel to Broadway was originally a roof garden. In the 1970s when my parents were on travel they met an older couple who mentioned they had lived in Astor Court years before, and that the “Japanese Roof Garden” was a building treasure. By the 1970s that Japanese roof garden was long gone. The only greenery on the abandoned roof was a planter my childhood friend used to try to grow fruits and vegetables.

But yes, Astor Court was a VERY grand building when it was completed in 1916 (the date is carved into a decorative stone plaque on the Broadway front of the building, a few floors up from the street). A grand courtyard, a roof garden, all apartments with maid’s rooms (and 5 of 8 lines had 2 maid’s rooms), a call buzzer operated by one’s foot built into the floor of the dining room to summon the staff during dinner, call bells in the frames of the bathroom doors to summon the maid when you stepped out of your bath, state of the art iceless electric refrigeration, modern electric design heralded for its incorporation of well placed power outlets to run the many new electric lamps and electric devices that were new to the market (power was supplied by United Electric Light & Power Company which had its offices and lighting showroom in the two Broadway storefronts at the 89th street corner where Pinky Nails is currently located), a separate freight entrance with a lift from the street to the basement to connect to all 4 service elevators (this entrance is labeled 204 on the 90th Street side of the building and is now a very tiny apartment; the lift has been removed.) Until the late 1990’s there was a wonderful old sign that had survived in one of the service elevators that read, “Attention All Maids, Servants, and Elevator Operators” with instructions informing them that they must use the service elevator.

ph41 – There are very few rent stabilized tenants. In the larger apartments, there’s only one in A-line, possibly one in the B line, none in the C’s or D’s.

Check out this links, great Astor Court historical photos and text from when the building was new:

http://tinyurl.com/6lcfzvj
“Architecture and Building,” 1916, Volume 48 (appears as pages 109 – 110 in your browser)
Detailed text describing original Astor Court design, finishes, and amenities with fabulous photos.
Photos plates 26 through 29: building exterior, lobby, interiors of living room, dining room, child’s bedroom, original floor plan.
Shown as pages 18-19 on the printed page, photos: original bathroom with fixtures, original penthouse level laundry rooms with clothes dryers, original kitchen with gas range and range hood (with lights under the hood touted as an amenity) and floor tiles.

Here are two other links with more Astor Court historical photos and text from when the building was new:

http://tinyurl.com/5w4zvbl
“Lighting Journal,” October 1916, Volume 4, No. 10 (appears as page 211 in browser)
Pages 211-214 on the oriented page: drawings, photographs and description of the United Electric Light & Power Company’s showroom and offices in the 89th street & Broadway corner storefront and basement.

http://tinyurl.com/3fcembd
“The Architectural Forum,” November 1920
P. 93: Kohler bathtub advertisement showing exterior image of Astor Court and image of Kohler tubs installed in Astor Court bathrooms. Ad text plays up the Astor Court connection to establish credentials as a high end product.

LarryAndBrian, thanks!

In Platt's 120 East End from 1930, you see the same compact planning of elevators and stairs, enfilade, and a certain feel. I've got a monograph of his, but it predates Astor Court.