Sub Zero Refrigs

I got one at Gringer in the East Village. I found the cheapest quote on price from a place without a showroom in NJ but Gringer was happy to match and the service was great.

check out the leibherr (sp?) that has rec'd so much press on many threads. have no direct knowledge but a number of posters seem to have tremendous enthusiasm for it. have personally had real frustration with sub zero.

thank you -

Almost everyone I know with a Sub-Zero has had trouble, curable at enormous expense. E.g., if the compressor goes, you may as well trash the thing and start over.

Sub-Zero used to be one of only a few built-in or counter-depth options, but now that they aren't, no reason to buy into hassles.

I got a counter-depth Amana from Gringer 17 years ago, and it's purred along trouble-free ever since. I'll never be able to get that Leibherr....

NWT, have you found that Gringer is a good place to buy all types of kitchen appliances besides refrigerators? I'm sure that I'll want to replace the dishwasher, oven, etc. when I buy an apartment. That's the store on First Avenue, I think?

I've heard the same bad things about Subzeroes, and nearly as bad for Viking/Wolf ranges -- but for the ranges, it's less about breakdowns and more about badly-designed, never worked well to begin with.

That's the only appliance I've ever bought, so no clue. IIRC that model was hard to find back then, and I came up with Gringer somehow.

30yrs had mentioned a good place where he gets stuff for multiple apartments, but can't find the thread now.

been doing business with gringer for many, many yrs. would highly recommend them.

don't get me started about viking cooktop. not only have we had to replace glass top 3 times but odd cutout size means we are stuck with this piece of crap unless prepared to redo counter and cabinets. does look nice, however and works well until it doesn't.

p.s. wouldn't surprise me if hfscomm1 works in customer service for viking...would fit right in.

So far so good with 3 Subzeros in 3 places. Probably would have gone for Liebherr had they been available.

The 30" Liebherr isn't cheaper than the equivalent Subzero, or am I missing something? On the other hand,
the 48" Liebherr is cheaper than the equiv. Subzero.

I've bought appliances from Drimmers, Gringers, PC Richards. Service from Drimmers is the best out of the 3. Gringers close #2. PC Richards sucks.

If my 36" Subzero broke, I'd look at the Miele. Miele has outstanding customer service, they have their own repair people. Not cheaper, though.

nyc10023, did you get any type of service contract when you purchased your appliances? Have they needed any kind of service? My rental building gives us these terrible GE refrigerators which stop being as cold as they should every six months or so and need alot of maintenance.

Based on nothing whatsoever, I'd check out Electrolux Icon's fridges.

For buying, Home Sales or Yudin's

No, I have always thought that the service contracts were ripoffs. Maybe I should have rethought this vis-a-vis the Subzero refrigerators.

A few months ago, I made a list of the minor issues with 2 appliances and had them fixed just under the 2-year mfr warranty. In my experience, lemons tend to show themselves in the first 2 years. I read the manuals pretty carefully and clean the bits that need cleaning.

More ref. thoughts - because my ref. is only next to the pantry, I probably should have not paid for the integrated Subz. I could have gone with anything that took a custom panel (I hate the SS look).

I've never bought from AJ Madison, but they're pretty big as well in the area.

Hey CC...what was the point of your comment...

p.s. wouldn't surprise me if hfscomm1 works in customer service for viking...would fit right in.

1) you actually enjoy hfs's comments and are baiting him/her
2) you ARE hfs

1) Liebherr 30" is about $4500 versus roughly $6000 for the subzero. Realize that if your elevator can't fit the subzero and the top compressor needs to be removed, there will be an extra $500+ charge.
Liebherr's have two compressors (versus one for subzero I think) and operate significantly more efficiently. Liebherr is considered more "green." It's service record is also much better. They look essentially the same (actually a little less cliche, if you will), and if you put a custom panel on them, they all look nearly identical. The Liebherr top vent kit is a very clean polished look, too.

2) Gringer: mixed review. They match prices and beat Krups or PC Richards. If the delivery goes without a hitch, your golden. If there is any delivery problem so far as damages, good luck. It will take you FOREVER to straighten it out. They send someone to inspect, then they argue with you, then they say they'll fix it even though you can't see how it can be fixed, then they can't fix, then you ask for a replacement and then 6 weeks later after you want to kill yourself the problem is resolved. INSPECT YOUR APPLIANCES BEFORE SIGNING A SINGLE PIECE OF PAPER--BETTER YET DO NOT LET THEM INTO YOUR APARTMENT WITHOUT INSPECTING THEM!!!! Delivery is a wham-bam super fast rush of perp-y guys hustline in and out and before you know it you have 5 seconds to look at thing and then sign for them. Signing is the KISS OF DEATH if there is damage. It is incumbant upon you to slow things down, take your time, and really inspect well. Do not have a GC inspect because your eye will be more critical. Better yet, have your spouse or a friend or your mom with you for delivery.

All appliance dealers are sort of unpleasant to deal with by the end--none garner raves. It is a cut throat business and customer service is a grand annoyance to them all once they have your money. Stay on top of this!!

Better yet: do not buy your own appliances. Let the contractor order them and be responsible for them. I was on a very tight budget and did most things right based on tons of research during my reno. One BIG mistake was ordering the appliances myself. It wasn't worth the headaches or the savings.

my feeble attempt at humor. as noted many times before, does not appear to be one of my strengths.

Kyle, yes that was my question that I left on another earlier thread. Is it better in some cases to have the contractor order on your behalf? Would you limit the contractor to only ordering appliances or would it extend into ordering bathroom tile, vanity, bathtub, etc? Just your opinion which we all feel is very worthwhile.

LOL.. No need for the assurance about my many opinions. Personally, I believe the less you order the more you will survive your reno with your sanity in check. Timeliness of delivery, damages, wrong item shipped, not enough tile sent, etc are bad headaches that were worth it to me to pass on to the GC. The architect specified every iota of the job and the GC ordered the stuff. If something was wrong, it was for them to iron out. As I said, I ordered my own appliances and it was a mistake (I didn't make many :)). I also ordered my own light fixtures which was actually pretty easy but I had some guidance from architect on technical questions and knew a little of what I was doing.

Kyle, you may have many opinions, but I have too many questions. I'd rather be the person with the answers than the person who always needs the answers.

Gringer has the WORST service of all time. Buy there and if you have a problem which you will good luck ever getting someone on the phone...

I had an entirely uneventful (which in the world of appliances means great) experience buying Miele W/D from Gringer. Would use them again. I bought a DCS BBQ grill from AJ Madison. Took longer than expected for delivery but good prices and otherwise uneventful.

I hope that others have comments on the merits of the Sub Zero debate. My wife is fixated on the bottom freezer units, so we have been debating Sub Zero, Miele, Liebherr. I had been leaning toward Miele, but it is actually the smallest and priciest. The Liebherr (36") is $2K+ cheaper.

Prob is that Gringer's service is as awful as the others so what are you to do? If appliances arrive without issue, you will like them. But if there's a problem, you won't. Delivery service is subcontracted so those guys toss your stuff around getting it into your apt so they can make their parole appointments on time. Same perp types deliver for PC Richards, etc.

Our experience is that the basic GE appliances we had when we started our lives lasted almost forever and were in turn cheap to fix. As we moved up the luxury ladder, the failure rate and the cost per repair escalated dramatically. This has been a really educational experience.
I don't think we'll buy these so called high end appliances again -- they do not perform any better really -- degree of heating/cooling seems similar. They look fab, but have poor energy efficiency and high repair costs. In short a rip off.
I am inclined to buy the most reliable basic appliance to reduce the headache. Question is whether or not to trust the reviews -- we bought a Maytag Neptune washer/dryer based on stellar consumer reports reviews. It was a disaster not to be repeated.

I own a Liebher. It's a great refrigerator and doesn't cost nearly as much as a subzero. It does have two compressors. Check out Renos and Karl's in NJ. They deliver to NYC.

Almost everyone I know with a Sub-Zero has had trouble, curable at enormous expense. E.g., if the compressor goes, you may as well trash the thing and start over.

I agree with NWT. Kitchen Aide and G.E. make better high end models. How many people buy a sub zero thinking it helps sell the apt and no other reason?

I keep reading reviews about how terrible Sub Zeros are and how much of a pain it is to get parts for it when things fail. Given these points, I'd pass and look for a different high end brand.

I'm thinking of going with a 36" Liebherr french door fridge, but I know when they first introduced the model there were some problems with the doors . . . . Anyone have one of these, and are you happy with it?

I can't comment on the frig, but I have their wine cooler. It was expensive, but it works, and the one time it "appeared to fail" service walked me through several steps that turned it into a routine maintenance issue. That said my Kitchen Aide Architect series is quite good.

Then why can't GE make a better-looking fridge? Counter-depth, custom panel fridges are dime a dozen in Europe and cost less than 25% of Subz/Miele/Liebherr.

I'm not about brand snobbery, I just don't like the esthetics of normal refrigerators. I like the retro-looking fridges as well.

JoeD: I have a middle of the range LG front loader & dryer. People complain online about the stink but I've never had a problem. I've been very happy with both

nyc10023. YOu don't like the G.E. monogram look?

Nope, I like this - http://bigchillfridge.com and there's an Italian mfr that makes similarly styled appliances.

Check out the prices - btw, 630mm = counter-depth.
http://www.coopelectricalshop.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?ProductCode=MIE-FFR-KDN12823S-W

Nice, but a little on the bucolic side.

Nope, I like this - http://bigchillfridge.com and there's an Italian mfr that makes similarly styled appliances.

Nice, but a little on the bucolic side.

i'm not interested in custom panels so the choice was easier for me. i bought a counter-depth french door jenn air 36" which i love. for me it's all about the internal space configuration. i find the sub zero to be very inefficient in terms of the room available.

we just got (last week) the Miele 36. It is big (very tall) so make sure it fits into the space. We decide to go Miele everything, wall oven, dishwasher and fidge/bottom freezer ( we have an additional 6 burners Garland). All were bought from AJMadison. determining factors were reliability and how quite the machine is. Miele was the best as far as noise level. I suspect that when you spend so much on a fridge a difference of few hundreds is not the issue. We had to call Miele to remove door handles (width of corridors) and they responded with tech visiting us 5 days from placing the call. So far, dishwasher and wall oven are fantastic. I have hard time figuring the router on the fridge,,,(yes it has a high speed connection to my computer)

^--- What did you do with your old appliances? Trade-in, give away, throw away, sell?

columbiacounty
about 7 hours ago
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check out the leibherr (sp?) that has rec'd so much press on many threads. have no direct knowledge but a number of posters seem to have tremendous enthusiasm for it. have personally had real frustration with sub zero.

how difficult life sounds for you

Can some one please educate me? Why do people go for sub-zero instead of GE stainless steel finishes? Is it the prestige or the looks? I am assuming GE is 30-40% cheaper and equally durable.

>Can some one please educate me? Why do people go for sub-zero instead of
>GE stainless steel finishes? Is it the prestige or the looks? I am
>assuming GE is 30-40% cheaper and equally durable.

I would assume it's for the supposed prestige. My mother's apt came with a subzero and it breaks all the time. Plus it's ridiculously overlarge. Personally, I don't like the stainless steel look.

we have a kitchen aid architect right now -- it and the Whirlpool are made by the same people as are some Sears models

So far it has been fine -- with 1 exception -- the icemaker has perpetual problems -- my wife does not want to call them and the warranty has now run out
I think the icemaker is a problem device since the previous fridge we had -- a subzero -- loved spitting ice at us too

Our SubZero is 11 years old and has required 3 or 4 repairs , at least two of which were after the basic 5 year warranty expired. The nicest part of getting the unit repaired is that SZ deals with the repair guys before they leave the house and we've yet to pay a penny in repair bills. Customer service is great even if the units are less than perfect. I wonder if Miele or Liebherr give such good service after the warranty is up? My experience with other expensive imported machines (i.e. my late Benz) is that the manufacturer will deny there's problem and eventually blame the owner for equipment failure. GE sounds like a good idea until you realize that the Sheinhardt Wig Co. makes lots of products and not all perform as expected or designed.

Sheinhardt Wig Co
very good
the thing is that a prestige SZ per instance repair buys you a new Sheinhart device -- yes it contributes to a consumptive society, but the economic and environmental life cycle costs of a SZ are ridiculous

Reno'Appliance in Fairfield NJ is very competitive price-wise. Gave me a lower price (including delivery, taxes and removal of old SubZero) than Drimmers and Gringer for a new 30 inch Sub Zero. Their service people are knowledgeable and responsive. The delivery/installation guys were very good and did not charge extra to remove the compressor of both new and old units to get them in/out of our co-op. Old one was 22 years old when it began to give out -- I found a good parts place online and replaced a number of failed electronics parts on my own - was relatively simple to do and cost a fraction of what L&J would charge, but, some general knowledge of electronics is needed. The new one uses much less electricity than the old one -- on the old one the compressor seemed to run 23 hours/day. Liebherr was an option we considered but we did not like the design and also read some questionable reviews. Would have purchased GE Monogram if they made one that fit our space -- sadly, not too many 30 inch options available to fit a former SubZero space.
All said, the new one looks/runs great but $6,600 is way too much to pay for a fridge/freezer.

Indeed -- for $6600 you could buy 6 GE stainless steel side by side monster refrigerators. The prestige factor notwithstanding .... This is not a Lexus vs Toyota Camry issue, where the guts are similar but the appointments differ and you pay a premium. Here, we end up with more like a defective Jaguar model vs a Toyota Camry in terms of pricing and performance and the difference in the appointments is not substantial

excellent metaphor---yet, so many of us bought (and continue to buy). kind of embarrassing.

Subzero, Miele & Viking show up in ads to sell apartments. Less expensive brands not so much.

Oh, CC, you ruined the continuity for my last hello!

My parents had a regular freezer-on-top Frigidaire refrigerator from 1967 to 1987 without it needing a single repair. The Amana they replaced it with is still going strong (22 years) without needing a single repair. My mother and both grandmothers have collectively owned six ranges for a total of 180 years (Hotpoint, GE, Amana), none of any needing repairs.

How "high end" are these appliances (Sub Zero, Viking, Wolf, Miele, etc.) really if they are so high maintenance?

Just like people!

Amana,etc, are all well and good. But the problem is that if one wants a counter-depth 30" fridge, the selection available is very narrow and Maytag, Amana, GE are not options. I don't know why, but they leave the 30" market to highend makers. There's just no choice for the consumer but to go high end. The less expensive LG and similar smaller units are not full 30" sizes or are not built-in type fridges. For a small NYC kitchen, counter-depth and fridge top are really, really nice features. I leaves one having to decide between the subzero and liebherr for a 30" model. I had no burning desire to spend $4500 on a fridge, but the overall design was important to me for the kitchen, and since it is something I use a lot, everyday and see from most parts of the apt., the money made sense since it got me a great product (Liebherr) that fit the aesthetic bill perfectly. If other makers jumped into the fold, I'd happily consider them if a next time arises.

For the Liebherr, I am amazed at the energy efficiency. Food kept at 36 degrees F, and freezer at -3 degrees F, and my electric bill for the fridge is about 25%+ less than my old Frigidaire. Interior is also terrifically laid out making great use of the space. My only complaint is that I wish the doors had more solid magnetic closure or something because I have to be sure they are really shut now. If I get it wrong, though, it does beep to let me know after about 2 minutes of being improperly closed.

The cost of repair on these appliances in most (but not all) instances is a reflection of supply and demand. People with $7,000 refrigerators have a supply of cash, and the trade folks demand it when the opportunity arises.

Most of the basic parts for (at least the assembled in US Sub Zeros, Viking, etc.) are off the rack parts. I replaced the ice maker and water regulator on my Viking refrigerator. In both cases, if you gave the Viking model number and asked for the part, you were quoted insane prices ($450 for the ice maker, $175 for the water regulator). However, if you pulled the part first and just typed the part number in google, you will find that the same parts are used in Whirlpool and many other refrigerators, and could be bought for 1/3 the price. If you find an honest repair person, they will tell you the same thing.

agree kylewest - the liebherr needs better sealing of the doors, though the longer we've had it, the less its been a problem - either we're more careful, or the rubber needs time to break in fully. it is a great appliance - extremely well laid out and efficient. i'm amazed at how much we are able to get in there, and how easy it is to find things.

We purchased a counter depth, french door GE from the new cafe line for our vacation home. It cost about 3K and has an internal water dispenser so the front is very 'clean and streamlined'. So far, we have been very pleased with it and the french door option allows for lots of room for platters, etc. We used all GE cafe line appliances in that kitchen.

nyc_sport thanks -- so the innards of the sub-zero are the same as the Whirlpool or similar brands
The higher repair frequency then suggests that the basic engineering and sizing is v poorly done. I am an engineer and designing such an appliance is not rocket science. It does need to be properly balanced and wired. It seems that these companies cannot even do that and yet command premium prices since someone is willing to pay them.
Shameful

My understanding the big design difference between sub-zero and Whirlpool is the second compressor.

is that kind of like the difference between you and your other identity....hfscomm1...a larger compressor?

a) The place NWT was trying to remember that I recommended was Drimmer's, which was because of their service, but I can't tell what service people who haven't spent 6 figures there and don't have their own personal sales rep will get.

b) My SubZero 550 has 2 compressors and is about 15 years old. I've had 2 problems with it and the total for the 2 repairs was about $250.

c) The problem with getting your SubZero repaired is that most people don't know shit about how appliances work and get ripped off by their repair people. A Subzero compressor is only abut $400 and shouldn't cost more than $200 to install. Given a new one is what? $6,000? I'd hardly say if the compressor goes you're better off getting a new one.

d) But then, I usually diagnose and repair my own appliances. It's usually faster to overnight order parts and install them yourself than wait for an appointment with some rip-off repair idiots. And some parts it just pays to buy extras of before they wear out: for example, I almost always have an extra igniter for my Maytag gas dryer because they burn out every couple of years and then it takes all of 5 minutes for me to put the new one in. In fact, all my appliances are 15 years old and i think I've spent a total of about $700 or $800 on repairs in that time including when I've had outside repair people come in (and I think a lot of the savings has been because I've pre-ordered the parts, but there's some stuff I don't feel like messing with myself like changing the drum roller in the dryer or the evaporator coil in the SubZero).

whoa partner---so...you've spent over $100 K on appliances---I'm impressed.
you fix your own appliances? i'm really, really impressed.

Kudos to my fellow engineers. I know who to email when my compressor dies and I want to DIY.

Fuck compressors, I have an icebox, when the ice melts, you just slap another slab in.

columbiacounty
about 2 hours ago
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whoa partner---so...you've spent over $100 K on appliances---I'm impressed.
you fix your own appliances? i'm really, really impressed.

columbiacounty, he's not your partner and he will never be. Don't ever talk like that is not the case. Never.

12 years ago we bought an apartment with a Sub-Zero and soon thereafter had to replace its compressor for about $750. BUT it was about 8 years old and the previous owner hadn't taken proper care of it (you need to vacuum it a couple of times a year). 12 years later, without paying another dime for service or maintenance, we sold it along with the apartment, passing along a 20-year-old Sub Zero in perfect operating condition to our buyers.

The coop we just bought has a brand new GE Cafe with French doors. I can't wait for it to fail (and given my experience with GE appliance, it will. Soon.) Then I won't pay a nickel to fix it. Instead I'll immediately replace it with another Sub Zero. There's really nothing like them and like most things, you get what you pay for.

What kind of refrigerator did Jeff Dahmler have?....anyone know? thanks

Or, put differently, if Jeffrey Dahmler could manage without a subzero refrig, why do you need one?

What did Jeffrey Dahmer say to Lorena Bobbitt?

Nextera lol -- your time will come

I'll scramble the eggs?

I think thing the Miele fridge will text you if you're low on milk, or if the eggs are approaching their best before date. Although you do need welding glasses before opening the door lest the 10000 watts of high pressure sodium gas lights burn out your retinas.

I love it and believe it's the most innovative refrigerator out there right now. I don't think the top compressor assembly is removable though so might be a tight fit in some service elevators.

Has no one mentioned the incredibly lousy icemakers that SubZero has?

I grew up getting cold water and ice from my refrigerator without opening the door, and to me, that's still a standard of a good refrigerator/freezer. I don't understand why you'd pay $6,000 just so your fridge could shoot ice cubes across the room.

ali r.
[downtown broker}