Harlem - South Harlem vs. Striver's Row

Your resale value will likely be higher in South Harlem as gentrification usually expands from neighborhood to neighborhood and not randomly. Striver's Row is very tempting, though, with some beautiful brownstone properties. If I had a choice between two properties in the same price point, I'd probably choose South Harlem because of resale and convenience to transportation.

South Harlem has much more to offer in terms of amenities - Good coffee shops, restaurants, shopping, groceries, transportation, etc. I agree with Kenneth.

South Harlem is huge to make a valid comment here. it includes much worse places and much better places than Striver's Row (a much better defined location). the same area that South Harlem covers (CPN till 125th? till 116th?) represents several different neighborhoods in downtown and midtown.

I'm not looking in East Harlem, so something between 5th avenue and Morningside Park, below 125th. Central Park North is too expensive.

check out manhattan avenue. some really nice prewar stuff and great fixer-uppers around there. you didn't mention your price range, but that you might eventually buy a townhouse. manhattan ave is right near the (now)-beautiful central park north area and some good columbus ave and amsterdam restaurants (particularly Thai Market and Crepes on Columbus). here are some:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/185886-multi-403-manhattan-avenue-central-harlem-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/479197-house-401-manhattan-avenue-central-harlem-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/489713-townhouse-105-manhattan-avenue-manhattan-valley-new-york

of course, you can probably find apartment units in this area too. it's an area in which i aspire to live one day.

i just realized you said that central park north is too expensive. my bad.

I think they mean the buiklding called CPN, that is expensive..

Central Park North is too expensive - I mean, we could afford units in the building, but at that price per square foot, I don't see the point of buying in Harlem. I see the "point" of buying in Harlem when you can something for less than $500 a square foot. Especially when the area around CPN is not even really as nice as a lot of other parts of Harlem.

Can eventually afford around $2mm.

Winston, renting is a very good idea. It is the only way of really knowing what is happening. I renteda duplex temporarily in Mt Morris and I got to understand much better the neighborhood. . There is a rental in Strivers that was discussed here that seemed like a great deal.
South Harlem has the amenities that Strivers lacks for now, but is more noisy and busy. For the young crowd, no doubt Central Harlem is more appealing. Strivers seem to be more traditional and have way less people hanging out in the streets.

mimi - how much time have you spent hanging around striver's area during off hours? I know you're very concerned about safety/isolation. When we were looking at beacon towers we went up there on a summer friday night around 1AM. I felt like that really made a difference in our minds about safety issues.

mmarquez, I tried to stay in Strivers for some days in a temporary rental but couldnt find a place. I wanted to know about your experience in Strivers because I really have not walked once at night in that neighborhood. For what I see, there is way less people hanging out in the street in Strivers in general. Now, I dont know exactly what does it mean. I tend to feel more protected at night when I am not the only person walking in the street, but in fact, the shootings tend to happen in avenue corners, which are more populated than side streets, and are usually gang related. I actually like people hanging out in the streets, and the more lively vibe in South Harlem, but prices there are even more out of whack than in Strivers. If you look at the crime stats, there are relatively low in both places.

understood. i also think that more people is better. I have to say that generally there are always at least a few people out on FDB regardlesss of the time. This is in the dead of winter though - i would expect more in the summer. I believe that FDB near strivers is quieter than some of the avenues in south harlem bc there is a lot more small to medium residential properties here.

mimi, did you feel safe in Mt. Morris Park area? Did you walk around late at night? You prefer South Harlem?

"mimi, did you feel safe in Mt. Morris Park area? Did you walk around late at night? You prefer South Harlem?"

at night in harlem i don't feel safe at all (i've been living in south harlem for the last 4 years), neither when i'm not alone. i do feel safe at night in other parts of the city. there are blocks that are still very gangster/ghetto/petty drug deals like. on those i cannot tell whether i feel safer when there's people or when it's totally empty.

No one at all is ever on Mt Morris Park West. Its very safe btw lennox and there. I literally saw more white people there than black people, and more asian or white women jogging alone or with baby in strollers than anything else. Since I know those are socio-economic-racial codes for "safe."

But along FDB is closer to more subways, and generally nicer, below 125th. Lenox is still very ghetto-ish. Mt Morris Park is a weird isolated enclave not near anything, and a place which NO delivery people can ever seem to find. "I am sorry - morris park? Morningside park? what? Are you in dee Bronx? I am sorry where is deese place?" And even the car service people, with GPS no less, can never understand what you are trying to say. "Eeez eet eeen dee Bronx? Dee driver eez outside. What??? Eeez in Harlem? Oh, so sorry."

jason - maybe their maps refer to it as marcus garvey park? it's really annoying how everything has multiple names in Harlem. half of my bills say 8th ave and other have say fdb.

I think that the most gentrified area is between 116th and 125 btw morningside and lenox.
i'm not a fan of between 116th and cpn

"Mt Morris Park is a weird isolated enclave not near anything, and a place which NO delivery people can ever seem to find. "

using "marcus garvey" as the name of the park helps with some. funny "dee bronx?"...

I agree - Lenox does seem very ghetto still. The funny thing is I think it could be beautiful eventually with those big, wide sidewalks and the architecture. Adam Clayton Blvd is in some ways even worse. The buildings may be in better shape, but all of the retail there sucks. At least Lennox has some okay retail now.

That's what I struggle with. People say South Harlem is nicer, but the areas near the brownstone blocks really aren't that nice.

they're probably like - there's no mountains in harlem, so it's obviously in the bronx.

> i'm not a fan of between 116th and cpn

neither i am. i'm no fan of the area that's mostly populated by west african community (around 116th and FDB). tons of chicken bones in the sidewalk, rude guys. and still dilapidated RE stock.

> Mt Morris Park is a weird isolated enclave not near anything

it feels the same way to me

> That's what I struggle with. People say South Harlem is nicer, but the areas near the brownstone blocks really aren't that nice.

i struggle imagining the situation getting better anytime soon given that the RE bubble crashed. if the bubble would have been 5 years longer... then it would have been another story. there's a lot of "structural" clean up to be done. dilapidated buildings that seem about to fall apart, excess of bodegas and tiny little 99 cent stores, the liquor store being the nicest one in the block... :-(

The answer depends on what you place value on. Strivers delivers: private parking, serenity, landmarked status, larger lot sizes (for townhouses), compared with townhouses West of Frederick Douglass, south of 125th. South of 125th, near Frecerick Douglass, delivers: proximity to Central Park, higher density of newly converted condominiums, more cafes and restaurants within walking distance, steady supply of Columbia renters, feels safe because of higher foot traffic. From a price appreciation perspective, itdepends on your purchase price and the individual apartment or townhouse acquired.

I'm partial to the townhouses closer to Mt. Morris - the ones between Lenox and Fifth or Lenox and ACP.
Plus, long-term, I think that area will be the more beautiful than the FDB coridor. The FDB area is nicer now, but it's all new buildings, less interesting architecture. Although St. Nicholas avenue is beatiful. Lenox has nice old buildings to restore - I agree thought that this will take a while, we're at the wrong point the real estate cycle. Although, if prices get cheap enough, I could see individual investors buying a restoring old buildings. The retail I think will continue to improve - the faster prices fall the faster this will improve is my guess,

The area at night is still my biggest concern. I'm less concerned about 1 am. If I'm out that late, I'm taking a taxi. It's more the subway home from work at night, or after dinner (9 to 11 pm).

Winston, I feel safe in Mt Morris. Lenox is very busy, and the side streets to the park are very short. The houses are beautiful. But they are the most overpriced ones in Harlem now, since it seems that people looks for signs of gentrification. If I can get a house with parking in Strivers, though, I´ll choose that without doubt.

Winston, I don't think the townhouses there will be overpriced longer. A lot of them having been sitting on the market for a while. I think they'll always command a premium to those farther north, but I don't even finished ones will trade for $2 million.

Winston, I hope I can offer you a bit of constructive advice as my wife and I recently bought a 2BR on 122nd & ACP. We ended up paying in the region of $430 sq. ft. for a 1600 brownstone duplex and in the three months that we have been there I can honestly say I really like the place. As somebody here mentioned, ACP and Lennox can be a little bit dodgy at night time, but saying that, I go to Planet Fitness gym on 126th & Lennox (awesome gym btw at $10 per month!) every night and have never had any problems.

Anywhere around 120th-125th & ACP/Lennox/FDB is wonderful for transport. 5 minute walks to the A/D or the 2/3 - all express lines. FDB as you know has seen a massive influx of business - restaurants, cafes, apartments and it is becoming quite a vibrant area. Lennox is also growing in popularity, with Tonnis opening recently along wtih Settepani Bakery. Both really nice cafe/cake type places.

There is a real community spirit around here. Not in a cheesey sense, but in a a way that people are really keen to see the area thrive and do well. It is happening on FDB and it is also starting to happen on Lennox (admittedly ACP is still dragging it's feet).

Of course, the area isn't perfect otherwise we'd be paying $800-1000 sq. ft to live here, but there is a real grass roots vibe to the place that I haven't really encountered in many other parts of the city. I lived on 73rd & York for 8 years, which of course has far more options for food and entertainment, but was possibly lacking in the charm department. There is easy access to MM/MG park along with Morningside Park, both are beautiful walks early in the morning with plenty of brownstone facades to admire.

I will also say it took a while for the neighborhood to grow on me. There isn't the immediate access to bars and restaurants like on the UES, but the more time you spend walking around and getting to know the area, the more you start to appreciate it's charm.

Anyways, just my input after moving here. Good luck wherever you decide to move :)

The street is CALLED "Mount Morris Park West." Why on Earth would I have given the address as "Marcus Garvey Park?" The street has been called "Mount Morris Park West" since the 1880s. If a delivery person or car service cannot find "Mount Morris Park West", believe me, they have less of an idea where "Marcus Garvey is." Both my roommate and I spent endless hours on the phone trying to explain to Carmel Car service, Papa John's, furniture delivery people, and others, that there was in fact a street West of Lenox facing a park...which would land them on Morningside Drive, or Central Park West.

Believe me, its actually a huge nightmare.

sorry, east of Lenox.

We tried "one bock east of Lenox."

"5th and a half ave"

"the street 5th ave becomes between 124th & 120th"

"The street on the west side of Marcus Garvey Park"

Nothing works. Its a NIGHTMARE. Its literally a big part of why I moved. People are immobilized if its not parrt of the grid system.

The implication was that maybe you would mention marcus garvey park once you start describing the area that it is near. Which is typically what happens after they have no idea where your street is located.

"Nothing works. Its a NIGHTMARE. "

if marcus garvey doesn't work, then cooking lessons will. take outs are not healthy nor easy on your waistline. delivery guys are just making you a favor.

At least you didn't have to deal with Morningside Avenue vs. Morningside Drive ... two long ends of a park that's only half a block wide -- but 3/4 of a mile long, and no through streets. I've practically had to grab the taxi steering wheel to stay the course. And for deliveries, I always said "go to Manhattan Avenue and 1XX Street, then head west until you get to the end of the block."

"I've practically had to grab the taxi steering wheel to stay the course."

LOL, i couldn't convince a driver once that he couldn't cut down through that park on 116th... he had to check for himself, couldn't believe his eyes.

'if marcus garvey doesn't work, then cooking lessons will. "

How can I cook a car to the airport, a furniture delivery?

lol, to cook a delivery. well... offering extra tip if they figure it out? whe did you move? i'm not criticizing you. it's just hte 1st time i hear "lack of delivery" as a reason to move. but maybe hubby would have moved if the very sporadic papa john's wouldn't work like a charm.

was this back in the day when yellow cabs didn't venture over here? or very recently? for me the area is isolated... charming as long as you don't walk 2 blocks away from it. so i wouldn't consider it unless there's a deal that's impossible to reject.

Isolated from what exactly. It´s half a block from Lenox, a shortwalk form the 2-3.

Wondering the same thing mimi. Being on 122nd & ACP I haven't sensed any sort of isolation. "Charming as long as you don't walk 2 blocks away?" Notadmin, not sure what you are saying here. There is plenty to see in all directions. Sure, up towards 135th things get a bit sketchy, but all around the 120s there is a lot to see. I would agree that it isn't perfect, but don't sell Harlem short!

alanhart, I feel your pain about wanting to seize the wheel. At night, fastest route from my office in midtown to home in Hamilton Heights is to take FDR to 135th Street, 135th Street to St. Nick. But drivers get thoroughly confused by the construction, 125th st. detour, etc. and twice have accidentally gone over the Willis Avenue bridge as I shrieked, No, no, not the Bronx from the back seat. Despite the obsessive attention to rebranding the Triborough, the signage in that area is terrible. While I appreciate the historical perspective of the Hellfighters reference, it doesn't seem to help cab drivers.

I moved for other reasons (too high rent, it was a walkup wanted a doorman, wanted NEW, etc)

However, teh delivery problem was straw on camel. It is ISOLATED in part because so few places deliver there as is - even places in harlem! Those that do cant find it. Its also a 13 minute walk to the metro north from where i lived and 15 minutes to the 4/5/6, and 7 minutes to the 2/3. So nothing close-close. No decent restaruants around, hard to get a yellow cab...all of this is less true along FDB or in East Harlem below 110th, for comparison's sake.

As for charming/two blocks away...uh, yeah, you are smoking crack if you don't think Mt Morris Park West and adjacent are 10x nicer than everything east of park and 90% of what is along Lenox.

Crack is whack.

"Its also a 13 minute walk to the metro north from where I lived and 15 minutes to the 4/5/6, and 7 minutes to the 2/3." Sounds like something my old gran would complain about ;) JK. This really isn't that bad in terms of transport options. I spent 8 years living on 73rd & York and can't think of any place worse for transport. It used to take 20 mins just to get to the 6. Where we are on 122nd & ADP we have a 5-8 minute walk to the A and 2-3 minute walk to the 2/3. Doesn't get much better than that for transport options :)

Jason, out of interest, where did you live when you were up in Harlem? Not sure if you have been up there since, but there is a lot of new development in the area around 122nd & FDB. As the area keeps improving, it won't be long until it filters over to ACP & Lennox (which is already seeing a lot of activity).

I moved in JULY. From 121st/Mt morris park west. I know exactly what is there.

mimi, jason put what i meant by "isolated" much better than i would have:

"As for charming/two blocks away...uh, yeah, you are smoking crack if you don't think Mt Morris Park West and adjacent are 10x nicer than everything east of park and 90% of what is along Lenox."

the nice part of mt morris is isolated on a map imho. it's surrounded by trashy/corner boy areas i wouldn't like to walk at night. it's not about isolation related to lack of public transportation in my case.

mimi, if you want to take a 10 to 15 block walk at night during the week in your future brownstone in mt morris so that you can relax, which route would you take?

notadmin, as much as I like Harlem and I am looking to buy there eventually, I dont think the area I will choose to talk a walk late at night. Early in the night, I would walk mostly everywhere. I used to live in the east village 2 decades ago and also had issues walking in the lower east side at night. I still loved living there back then. I rented temporarily in Harlem. I took the express train and walk with absolutely no problems until, say, 10, 11pm. After that I took cabs. I am not saying is the ideal life, but I like other aspects, including that there I can afford a big place.
Mt Morris is actually one of the safest areas, because Lenox has traffic and gypsy cabs all night. I will not called the area isolated at all, specially compared to other areas I am researching, like Hamilton Heights and Strivers Row.

Mimi, so you are saying you didn't have problems taking the subway at 9 or 10 pm? Just after that.

I take subways all the time after 10pm on 125th. No problems whatsoever. 2/3 train on Lennox - busy avenue and two of the most reliable services in the city. A/D train over a bit further - busy avenue, not quite as reliable on weekends, but again, no problems at all with safety. I'm all for people wanting to feel safe in their respective neighborhood, but there is a fine line between safety and living in a bubble. Certain people on here need to leave mommy and daddy behind once and for all and take a step into the brave new world.

Oh, and jason10006 clearly hasn't been up to Harlem recently, otherwise he would have noticed the stream of new restaurants opening on FDB.

agreed, I'm not talking about taking the subway at 10 pm with earphones on and a map in hand, looking wide-eyed and scared. awareness is always in store, no matter where you are.

kissifer, do you walk in 145th as well? I wonder how does Hamilton Heights feel at night, like in 145th and FDB...
kspeak, I feel quite comfortable in 125th till 1Opm. After that I walk out of the subway station in quite an alert mode.

kissiffer4: 'Oh, and jason10006 clearly hasn't been up to Harlem recently, otherwise he would have noticed the stream of new restaurants opening on FDB."

OMG you are retarded. I said:

1) I have lived in Harlem since July 2007
2) I moved from Mt Morris to East Harlem (just above the UES) in July 2009
3) That East Harlem below 110th (or even really 106th) (especially along 1st, Lexington, Park, Madison, and 5th) are the most gentrified parts ALONG WITH FREDERICK DOUGLAS BLVD BELOW 125th!!!! (I have said the latter like 50 times!)
4) That I would PREFER FDB to Mt Morris because it has more restaurants etc.

You fricking moron, try reading my actual posts next time.

Hi there,

My fiance and I are thinking of staying on Strivers Row/Harlem Town home for our honeymoon. We are from Canada and both have never been to New York. I am a little skeptical about us staying there for the rent seems too conveniently cheap and I have only heard bad things about Harlem. Does anyone know if it would be safe for us to stay there? Any info would be greatly appreciated, including other places we might consider for a good price!

Thanks!