What would YOU want in your kitchen?

Me, I'd pay extra for a Liebherr fridge but I wouldn't pay for fake stainless. I hate that desperate suburban all-stainless "I wish I could cook professionally" kitchen look.

I agree about that fake stainless stuff - it looks super cheesy. But would you appreciate a $2,600 Liebherr fridge in a $550,000 1 bedroom is the question? The appeal of the old fashioned Smeg of course is that its has a nice sort of lacquered finish.

A garbage disposal and just a single sink large enough and deep enough for a cookie tray and casserole dish.

what's your budget?

So much of this is taste, and to mine, the Smeg is trendy while the Liebherr is timeless. But to the extent it's helpful, we recently asked our fabulous appliance repairman which appliances had the best repair records and among refrigerators he said, "hands down, the best is Liebherr." He also pointed out that the Liebherr is much more quiet than a Sub-Zero.

You probably know this but Viking makes a 24-inch range.

2 other ideas -- you could buy a less expensive refrigerator and mask its door with cabinetry. Or use refrigerator/freezer drawers. This can be a good choice when the kitchen is tiny or you want to break up the functionality; for example, you can put the refrigerator drawers (using one or two) in one place and the freezer drawer in another spot.

Buy what you like.

I love the look of the Smegs, but they get horrible reviews online. Check this out: http://www.unbeatable.co.uk/p_rupr/Smeg-FAB28-Fridge-With-Ice-Box-Reviews/20826992.html

Personally, I hate stainless steel appliances. I prefer either white appliances, or something with a unique pop of color (kitchens are supposed to be fun, not antiseptic -- save the antiseptic look for the bathroom).

Also, Consumer Reports -- probably one of the last truly objective sources of information on consumer products -- every year consistently rates these "luxury" brand appliances at the bottom of the list, including the venerated Viking, Wolf, and Sub-Zero brands because they are ridiculously prone to repairs. And EXPENSIVE repairs, at that - the average repair cost of a Viking stove, for instance, was $1200.

What do consistently rate the highest are the brands our mothers and grandmothers used and trusted for decades: Frigidaire. Kenmore. Hotpoint.

It really makes you wonder. If brands like Frigidaire and Hotpoint can produce appliances that cost nearly one-FOURTH what the "luxury" brands cost -- repair-free often for their entire lives (I'd never even heard of a stove needing repaired until these luxury brands started gaining popularity) -- what the hell are these luxury brands doing wrong? OR ... is it a shrewd money-making scheme, producing repair-prone appliances for which they know you'll pay repairs, since you've already invested thousands in them?

In 1983, my mother bought an Amana range and refrigerator for our newly-built home. After 27 years, four children, five grandchildren, countless holiday meals, weddings, graduations, funerals, anniversaries, etc., both appliances look and perform they day they were delivered, with ZERO service calls.

Even more impressive is the Tappan stove in my grandmother's house, purchased in the early 1960s. FIFTY years later, ELEVEN children, 32 grandchildren, 19 great-grandchildren, generations of holidays, family celebrations, and not to mention performing reliably in an era where women not only cooked three times daily but also did all of their own baking and canning (unlike today's high-end appliances in Manhattan apartments that no doubt see more of their share of dust than food), is still going strong today. I believe my mother said that stove needed only one repair, but only because one of her sisters broke a knob during the Johnson administration.

Seriously. A refrigerator is just a box that keeps food cold. A stove is just a box that heats food up. It's not rocket science, so there's no need to pay NASA-sized prices for them.

agree with next re liebherr and the potential cost savings by using the cabinetry. Viola Park line v.nice. smeg screams great at your country home in CT. also agree with newbie re the sink but disposals in NYC, thought that was a fantasy? backsplash, counter, floor info?

Interesting -- so you guys don't think the $2,600 Liebherr is too luxury for my apartment? If I lived in some great penthouse, I would jump on it -- or actually if I had infinite funds I would get Sub Zero under-counter drawers, which are a really clever concept I think.

I actually love the look of the Smegs - probably I'd get the cream color or mayyybe the pale blue - but it's maddening how low-tech they seem and plasticky upon close inspection. I don't want to have to deal with defrosting my $2,000 fridge, particularly. And the freezer is of course tiny.

I can't conceal the fridge in cabinetry because it's so expensive (the fridge enclosure cabinet is about $1,000 -- so at that point you might as well just get the damn Liebherr) and it doesn't make much sense in my kitchen design, which is already finalized.

NYCMATT - I hear you. The appliances in my kitchen at the moment actually do work really well. They are really solid, white, Kenmore. From the 70's I think. But unfortunately, visually they disappoint.

NYRENewbie - Yes, I love a big sink, too. I'm getting a 27" under-mounted single sink.

Romary - For the backsplash I'm going to do tile, probably the simplest Heath Ceramic tile. For the countertops I'm thinking Paperstone in Leather color (What do people think of this??) or maybe Ceasarstone in Pebble or Misty Carrara or Ice Stone, perhaps. For the floor I'm really not sure yet. I was initially thinking some kind of ceramic tile. But I like the look of some terrazzo style patterns ie Ice Stone type thing. Simple cork appeals to me but might be porous? Any flooring advice would be very welcome!

It's funny because my boyfriend renovated his kitchen in London last year and all of these European companies that are super pricey here (Liebherr, Miele, and to an extent, Bosch) offer a far wider range of products in the UK, offering cheaper models along with the fancy models they sell exclusively here (ie his Miele 24" all-stainless fridge was $1,600). Also - and I suppose this makes sense because most Americans (basically non New Yorkers) have vast kitchens - he had way more options to choose from when looking for a 24" fridge. Oh well.

Garfieldlady, a typical fridge has a lifetime of 10-20 years. In many ways, it's similar to a car: you may use it for shorter or longer, but most of its value is gone after a decade or two. Ever tried to sell a car after 5 years? You get about half what you paid for it. Ever tried to sell a fridge after 5 years? I bet it's about the same story.

Someone I know is buying a high-end fridge, and at some point he was offered a brand-new high-end fridge at like a 20% discount because another client changed their mind about what fridge they wanted. Much like a car, the value of the fridge drops the instant you dolly it off the showroom floor (OK, not exactly how it's done, but you get the picture).

My point is this: you're buying a fridge for $2600 maybe. In 5 years when you sell, you're expectation that you'll be able to "recoup" the costs are unreasonable. The real question you should be asking is whether you'd like to consume $1300 worth of refrigeration over the next 5 years. By all means, buy something that "fits" within the home's aesthetic and price range so that it fetches an appropriate resale price with the price of the home, but don't pretend you're "investing" rather than consuming.

That's a good point, Inonada. But I guess I can't justify simply spending $2,600 so I am trying to think of the fridge as an investment, especially so because I am planning to move apartments in about 5 years. For me, everything I do to the apartment feels like an investment because I know that I'm going to try and sell it soon-ish. If I were planning on living here indefinitely or for a decade or so, then I would feel much more eager to simply buy things that I personally simply like and would enjoy using. In this case I would definitely buy the Liebherr and I would also buy a Bluestar range. But I am not going to buy a $3,500 range for a $550,00 apartment because people looking at my apartment will probably not appreciate it or make a more generous offfer because of it.

"But unfortunately, visually they disappoint."

Send them out for a custom paint job. I'm not kidding. My aunt did this for her kitchen appliances a few years ago ... got all-white Frigidaire, and sent them out to get them all painted the same shade of aqua. They look fabulous.

***

"all of these European companies that are super pricey here (Liebherr, Miele, and to an extent, Bosch) offer a far wider range of products in the UK, offering cheaper models along with the fancy models they sell exclusively here "

Keep in mind that link I provided of people trashing the Smeg fridges is based in the U.K.

"For me, everything I do to the apartment feels like an investment because I know that I'm going to try and sell it soon-ish."

Remember that the main relationship you have with your home is consumption, not investment, and life will be much happier. I don't know Park Slope, but what's the rental value of your home? Something like $1800 a month? Multiply that by 7 years, and you're consuming like $150K.

The investment value may go up, it may go down, the consumption of $150K of value is certain. Frame your impulses regarding the investment value of whatever you do in those terms, and you may find yourself enjoying your home more.

The truth of the matter is that spending $6000 on a fridge and range is going to add somewhere between $0 and $6000 to your consumption over the next 5 years. Clearly some fraction of that will be recouped in a resale, but not some multiple. Clearly do things that are tasteful, make sense, etc., but anything you do at this point is small w.r.t. investment value.

In terms of big things you could do to influence the value of your home, it was the decision to purchase when you did so for the price you did so. The only other big thing you can do is when you decide to sell it and for what. Everything else you do is window dressing that will make only a marginal difference, so remember to enjoy for all these years in between. It is the biggest thing you are spending money on, and don't let life pass you by.

Well said, inonada!

Interesting concept, Inonada, but I might point out that real estate should always be an investment because the amount of money you put into it (not just on a monthly basis paying down the mortgage and paying the maintenance and interest but also - especially - in terms of the down payment) could instead be invested elsewhere - in stocks or bonds or commodities, for example. if a home were simply a thing to "consume," everyone except the super-rich would rent. of course the real estate market is the overriding force that determines if we will "do well" with our respective investments, but as we cannot control these market forces, we (or at least I) attempt to control or consider at least what we can ie the appliances.

But your point is well taken, and I will try not to let life "pass me by." But an extra thousand dollars saved is a thousand dollars I can put toward a holiday abroad, spend on books or beautiful clothing - or for that matter donate to people far needier than I. It's not a question of getting the very cheapest or the very best - like all things in life, a kitchen remodel is about compromise and about balance.

"But an extra thousand dollars saved is a thousand dollars I can put toward a holiday abroad, spend on books or beautiful clothing - or for that matter donate to people far needier than I."

You'd do well to keep that in mind as you remember that regardless of the brand name, as long as it keeps the food cold, it works as a fridge, and as long as it cooks the food, it works as a range.

"Well said, inonada!"

Well, crap. If NYCMatt and I agree on something, it may as well be gospel.

Good luck with your decision, garfieldlady.

I am sure I am in the minority, but I just can't justify the premium unless it's something that is going to make you happy. Obviously, I understand the concept of keeping an eye on resale, but not on these high end appliances. If I enter an apartment for sale and it has a high end appliance, I automatically discount the value significantly due to the fact that it's already lived anywhere from 25-50% of it's life span (assuming the appliance is 5 years old- as is your example). Add to it that these expensive brand names have poor reliability levels...and it solidifies my view.

In the grand scheme of buying an apartment in this town- if I need to spend several thousand upgrading the appliances to my wants/needs, I won't blink. In the middle of the country- where spending a fortune on a fridge is equal to some noticeable percentage of the price of the home then it would give me pause.

My final issue here is (and someone please correct me if I am wrong- I haven't gone through this process since I am a first time homeowner and my appliances were brand new to begin with) that appliances can be switched out easily without headaches associated with the rest of a remodel project. If I was looking at a resale- I could just go to an appliance store, and bam, a few days later they swap out my old appliances for new ones.

jacques pepin

Unless your current kitchen was truly decrepit, any $ you spend on your kitchen is likely going to be for your enjoyment. 5-year timeframe, 500k+ 1br apt, don't overthink it.

nyc matt - good point, but old school Amana, Tappan and Hotpoint were the gold standard. were/was being the operative word.Exc advice above - perhaps get a great Kenmore and put your cabinetry on it - will most likely look smashing.

garfield lovely choices for bspalsh, counter, floors. brand wise i'm partial to the bosch dishwasher but miele has a great rep. do what you like within your budget. you'll enjoy it while you are there, it will show well when you are ready to sell. i think of the reno we did in '03, sold in '05 and i'm thinking folks might look at it today and say meh or worse.

we have owned the basic appliances and the luxury brands and feel really quite foolish with the decision to get the high end stuff.
The basic GE, Whirlpool things never broke or if they did there was a relatively inexpensive do-it-yourself or call a repair person fix. The expensive stuff broke often and when the warranty was over, the repair estimate by far exceeded the cost of a stainless steel (yes, you can roar) basic brand version of the full appliance. So, we have gone back to the basics.
I would say that it is much more important to get the convenience factors in and junk the brands in this case. A garbage disposal, instant hot water, trash compactor, ice maker (independent of the fridge) are the 3 things not routinely mentioned that we find indispensable now.

I am also in the rare position of agreeing whole heartedly with Matt. Remember the sad tale of 407 PAS and his mistaken belief (among others) that a refrigerator should increase the value of his apartment by any significance?
If, as is the case with some people, cooking is your passion and you intend to prepare restaurant quality meals, by all means invest in restaurant quality equipment, in the same vein that a golf enthusiast buys top quality clubs. But if like many of us you will use you oven primarily to reheat pizza, GE is fine.
Btw, my mother had one of those old school stoves (I believe it was a Caloric?) with the broiler under the oven and "manual ignition". I don't think it was orginal to the apartment, I believe it was installed in the early 50s. That old war horse lasted until 2006...and the only repairs I remember involved hinges and the like. And not only did people (women mostly) do more cooking back in the day, there was also no microwave to share the burden of reheating, steaming etc. Unfortunately, I don't think any stove no matter how expensive is made today with the same expected life span.
One more thing, I don't care how cool (no pun intended) or attractive it is...there is no way a refrigerator that requires defrosting is a good idea. Some "retro" things are best left in the past. Many years spent with in front of the fridge with a blow tryer and spatula tells me that is one to add to the pile with TV "rabbit ears", unair-conditioned subways and "help wanted female".

Anyone else see the irony in this -well made U.S. appliances passed over for better looking pricier but less reliable Euro appliances (except subz/viking/wolf)?

there is a huge difference in terms of quality with small appliances (financially wise, it's smart to get the best from the get go if you can... mixers, food processors and the like). actually, you also move with them, another plus. i buy this cooking stuff and small appliances thinking they should last till i can give them to my grand kids.

with bigger appliances i don't see that huge quality gap there anymore (actually, most of them are being manufactured by the same company after tons of M&A within the sector). so ... each extra buck gives you less and less increase of services back.

Your new kitchen sounds like it will be really special (LOVE Heath Ceramic tile). For your floor, you might want to also look at porcelain tile. It is incredibly sturdy, many are very inexpensive, and they're now making it to convincingly look like other more costly/high maintenance materials including ceramic, limestone, wood and marble. One place to look is at Porcelanosa which has its catalog on its website and a nice and friendly showroom at the 200 Lexington Avenue Design Building.

I'm not a fan of cork because I don't think it's as durable as other materials and will age faster than the other finishes in your kitchen.

But back to the appliances and resale. First, every buyer is different and there are buyers who will choose your place BECAUSE of your lovely kitchen and how you used top quality finishes and appliances to create an efficient and stylish kitchen in a small space. In our former apartment which we sold last year, the kitchen had been redone before we bought it 12 years earlier. It came with a Subzero; the other appliances were all Kitchen-Aid. The high end refrigerator got high marks from me and I wished the other appliances were better. But then again, I love to cook so we sorted on the quality of the kitchen in choosing to buy the place and appreciated that we'd only have to upgrade the stove and dishwasher. (I could care less about trash compactors, separate ice makers or instant hot water; a garbage disposal is nice but many NYC buildings still don't permit them.)

By the way, our appliance repair guy who gave such a rave to Liebherr said he thought the best stove was Wolf. Dishwasher - Bosch. And washer dryer? Maytag (he was no fancy brand snob).

When we sold the place 12 years later, the Subzero was still working beautifully (it was now 18 years old and was repaired zero times in those 12 years we owned it). We had gradually replaced the stove with a Wolf and the dishwasher with a Miele (for the same reasons you're getting one -- we only had 18 inches). The person who bought our apartment said our appliances were a factor in her decision to choose our apartment over others, although I think she was into the brand status rather than their performance.

So you just don't know. What you also don't know is if you'll in fact sell in 5 years. What if you choose to stay? So if you can afford it, get something you love to use now, while it's your home.

Nyc10023, yes, I do see the irony. I can't comment much on this thread as am a renter, but I will say that going from a crappy and inadequate Magic Chef to a GE felt like a HUGE step up. I therefore wholeheartedly endorse whatever model of GE stove I am enjoying. In fact, I'm about to go fire it up now.

"If, as is the case with some people, cooking is your passion and you intend to prepare restaurant quality meals, by all means invest in restaurant quality equipment"

Another piece of irony is that my grandmothers used to prepare meals that could easily outshine any restaurant ... on their humble Tappan and Hotpoint ranges.

Actually, as a potential buyer in that price range (although I'm well past the 1-bedroom stage of life) I would say that appliances are not something that would factor into my offer. I would not care if they were top-of-the-line; I would not raise an offer. A crummy kitchen with a good layout would be much more important. I can renovate or buy new appliances, or live with the crummy kitchen until I can afford better; changing the layout is a lot harder, if not impossible.

"nyc matt - good point, but old school Amana, Tappan and Hotpoint were the gold standard. were/was being the operative word."

Not really.

Check the latest Consumer Reports ratings.

duly noted nycmatt re the CR ratings and shall chk out. amana is now whirpool, a fine brand.

Yeah. Try Magic Chef. Managed to turn out decent meals, but I still have scars.

"Yeah. Try Magic Chef. Managed to turn out decent meals, but I still have scars."

Sometimes the chef has to take responsibility for his own mistakes ...

i must say that this is one time where i say the liebherr really matters. if you only have 24" for a fridge, this one is much taller and gives you much more space. the smeg is cute, but that's it. the stove, however, only gets additional value if you are able to add something like convection. a 24" stove that works well is a 24" stove that works well.

jenn-air, kitchenaid, ge are all brands that are somewhere between matt's hotpoint and the big boys. if you are not planning on living there more than five years, i'd suggest you find the best value of the second tier, which should satisfy at least temporarily (and in your price range probably longer-term) your potential buyers, and should work well for you also.

evnyc, very funny.

Has anyone ever turned down an apartment in this range because the appliances weren't up to snuff? Don't mean to snark, but I find these types of threads bewildering. It is not as though Perfect Appliance Right Cabinets = The Selling Price You Want.

I can change the appliances - I can't change the view, construction quality of the the building or location.

actually, lookingforhome, yes. i saw an apartment that had been fully renovated and they really cheaped out (and i mean really) on the appliances. apples to apples, if you are comparing two units you might not need the highest end, but you might not want the lowest end as well.

of course you can change out appliances. at a cost. and a bit of a headache. people like to buy something they like. but i think you're VERY safe buying something that works, is a decent name, but not necessarily top shelf, so to speak.

agree looking. it would only make a difference (if so) for those that need to move right away and don't have the time to do upgrades it themselves.

i wouldn't pay more for a "nicely done" kitchen, but it could make me consider it more. that's a maybe. appliances per se depreciate a lot to pay for them imho. but that might not be the case with great tiles, floors and the like.

if you pay say 5% more due to a kitchen with nice appliances, wouldn't you end up paying more than what those depreciated used appliances are worth? light, view, floor plan flow, privacy, quality of construction, building's finances, location are the price drivers imho.

garfieldlady — DO NOT buy a Smeg. They look great, but in 10 months the gasket on the door will break; the shelves rattle; nothing is tight; it's manual defrost; things either ice or not cold at all.
Brits are not known for their sybaritic ways. The Smeg line looks fantastic but it's not good machinery.
Go for GE Profile range, by the way.

"I can change the appliances"

"if you are comparing two units you might not need the highest end, but you might not want the lowest end as well."

***

The fact of the matter is, most people are buying at the top of their affordability, with barely enough cash left after closing to satisfy post-closing liquidity requirements and cash for the movers.

As a result, they're looking for something they can move right into, and they're not necessarily looking to make serious up-front investments like new kitchen appliances.

I'll argue that while high-end appliances may not have enough sway to make a prospective buyer say "yes" ... crappy low-end appliances are definitely enough to make a prospective buyer say "next!".

a viking stovetop with 6 burners and a griddle

http://www.vikingrange.com/consumer/products/product.jsp?id=prod9590165

I'll argue that while high-end appliances may not have enough sway to make a prospective buyer say "yes" ... crappy low-end appliances are definitely enough to make a prospective buyer say "next!".

> totally agree

The fact of the matter is, most people are buying at the top of their affordability, with barely enough cash left after closing to satisfy post-closing liquidity requirements and cash for the movers.

> matt, during the bubble i see it. but are people still doing this across the board? i see prospective buyers either being way much more discriminating price wise than during the bubble or... being enticed by that $8k meager tax credit.

If an $8,000 tax credit is enough to "entice" you -- in the New York City market -- you really shouldn't be buying in this market.

Hell, just yesterday we had a guy whose head is still in the clouds, looking at penthouse apartments that only require 5% down because that's all he and his boyfriend can cobble together for a down payment.

If an $8,000 tax credit is enough to "entice" you -- in the New York City market -- you really shouldn't be buying in this market.
--------

in almost any! unless it's a shack or trailer... that would be a 10% discount... for the avg home in usa is a meager 4%... in nyc 1%?

>>I'll argue that while high-end appliances may not have enough sway to make a prospective buyer say
>>"yes" ... crappy low-end appliances are definitely enough to make a prospective buyer say "next!".

> totally agree

I may be in the minority here, but I'm more likely to pass on something with a kitchen reno and would prefer to buy something unrenovated so I could put in what I want (or use whatever works until I choose to put in what I want). When I go to open houses with marble/stainless kitchens, I turn around a leave immediately.

My kitchen's got all sorts of high-end crap, all looks great, but the one thing that impresses the hell out of me is the Bosch dishwasher. I'm sure it must be a high-end model, and I'm sure if you spend enough on a Whirpool you'll get the same, but I've never heard this quiet a dishwasher.

American dishwashers, in my experience, do a great job washing up, a little loud. For a quiet dw at a good price point, even the lowest-priced Bosch is very quiet (great for those open Ks).

> I agree about that fake stainless stuff - it looks super cheesy

I agree, but I think its the best of mediocre choices. What else? Tan colored fridge? Cheap wood cover? I think the fake stainless is the new neutral.

I also agree that if you don't have the room, you need a cabinet-depth fridge... but avoid them if you can. REALLY limit space.

Fridge/Freezer drawers are trendy and often useful... but I think a lot of buyers will still want a regular fridge. As bonus, maybe, but having no fridge at all.. risky.

Garbage disposal (once you have one, tough to not have)

and, how about a washer/dryer? (even if you have to put it in the kitchen)

"If, as is the case with some people, cooking is your passion and you intend to prepare restaurant quality meals, by all means invest in restaurant quality equipment"

It is amazing how much high end kitchen $$$ never actually get used. Folks who want $20k kitchens but can't cook anything more than eggs because of ego. Yet noone wants to spend $10k on a tv you'll use the heck out of.

"Has anyone ever turned down an apartment in this range because the appliances weren't up to snuff? "

Yes... if you think you're going to have to replace.

"Anyone else see the irony in this -well made U.S. appliances passed over for better looking pricier but less reliable Euro appliances (except subz/viking/wolf)?"

Its like we're back to the old days... when Toyotas were the crap cars.. (and apparently are again)

"Fridge/Freezer drawers are trendy and often useful... "

Horrible reliability track record, and they don't have nearly the space of a conventional refrigerator, particularly for large items that you sometimes want to just shove into the fridge and deal with later, like a half-eaten roast turkey on a platter, or an entire pizza box.

***

"I agree, but I think its the best of mediocre choices. What else? Tan colored fridge? Cheap wood cover?"

You could have them custom-painted the color of your choice.

***

"It is amazing how much high end kitchen $$$ never actually get used. Folks who want $20k kitchens but can't cook anything more than eggs because of ego."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the finest meals I've ever eaten were cooked on run-of-the mill ranges. It's not the appliance, it's the CHEF.

somewhereelse
"It is amazing how much high end kitchen $$$ never actually get used. Folks who want $20k kitchens but can't cook anything more than eggs because of ego. Yet noone wants to spend $10k on a tv you'll use the heck out of."

Amen brother, I tell that to friends all the time who are afraid to buy an expensive car (if they spend a ton of time in it),or an expensive computer (if they spend a ton of time on it),or an expensive TV (etc).

Or an expensive article of clothing.

Some of the best-fitting, most comfortable, and most durable clothes I've ever worn were also the most expensive. And, with a few notable exceptions, most of the cheapest clothing I've ever purchased was also the stuff I ended up wearing very rarely because it just didn't "hang" right on me, or didn't feel quite right, or fell apart in the washer after only a few wearings.

NYCMatt
"I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the finest meals I've ever eaten were cooked on run-of-the mill ranges. It's not the appliance, it's the CHEF."

Not always the case though, my mom (love you mom) is a terrible cook but when she got a convection oven know makes the most amazing chicken.

"Not always the case though, my mom (love you mom) is a terrible cook but when she got a convection oven know makes the most amazing chicken."

OK, I'll give you that.

I've heard great things about convection ovens.

Microwave ovens, however, should be banned: http://www.relfe.com/microwave.html

Bosch is a quiet dishwasher. I do cook on a daily basis, not gourmet, just every day. I prefer gas cook tops and ranges to electric. That is just me. I prefer to have two ovens. But in my small shore house I just bought a new gas range that has 5 burners and a small double oven built in so you can cook at two temperatures. I do not have much experience with it yet to know if I will like it, but I didn't have space for wall ovens and cook tops there, so it was a good alternative. I'll know more this summer. The most important thing to me is a good deep sink for prep and clean up. I dare some one to wash up pots in some of these crazy NYC sinks I see in million dollar apartments. The District didn't even have a real stove. I know you can do better than that!

If I were buying a new stove, I would go for an induction range with a convection oven. Which one exactly would depend on the latest consumer reports evaluation. I think they liked the GE in the most recent one, don't have it in front of me.

Induction is definitely the way to go.

"It is amazing how much high end kitchen $$$ never actually get used. Folks who want $20k kitchens but can't cook anything more than eggs because of ego. Yet noone wants to spend $10k on a tv you'll use the heck out of."

That's because no one thinks the $10K TV is going to magically be worth $10K or more after 10 years of use if you simply leave it in your apartment when you leave. People have major misunderstandings about consumption vs. investment, as can be gathered from the OP's original notion that the value of a fridge should be retained at par after 5 years of use.

NYCMatt, I agree that microwaves should be banned, but not for quack science. There is nothing wrong with them per se, but they go hand-in-hand with poor food preparation, re-heating and popcorn included. Sorta like a crack pipe, the instrument of an epidemic, only it affects nearly the entire population. Honestly, if you're going to use a microwave for food, you may as well have a meal at McDonald's. Probably cheaper and better-prepared.

"I prefer gas cook tops and ranges to electric. That is just me."

I'm with you there. I grew up in one of those "new" all-electric houses built in the '60s, and it seemed to take FOREVER just for the damn burners to warm up before they actually started cooking. I love the flame! Instant on -- full blast!

***

"I prefer to have two ovens. But in my small shore house I just bought a new gas range that has 5 burners and a small double oven built in so you can cook at two temperatures. I do not have much experience with it yet to know if I will like it, but I didn't have space for wall ovens and cook tops there, so it was a good alternative. I'll know more this summer."

Even the most casual of cooks quickly realize the utility of having two ovens -- if only to be able to toss a batch of brownies in one oven for dessert at 350 degrees, while the roast cooks at 400 degrees.

***

"The most important thing to me is a good deep sink for prep and clean up. I dare some one to wash up pots in some of these crazy NYC sinks I see in million dollar apartments."

AMEN!!!!! It doesn't even have to be a "farm-style" sink ... just deep ENOUGH to hold a large pot. And unless there's enough space for two LARGE sink wells, don't give me two useless narrow sink wells ... I'd rather have just one oversized one.

"Microwave ovens, however, should be banned: http://www.relfe.com/microwave.html"

Yowzah, the Russians have banned microwave ovens. That says it all!

"Yowzah, the Russians have banned microwave ovens. That says it all!"

They HAVE done quite a few things right, you know.

Let's not forget they DID put a man in space before we did.

And they have a knack for the obvious. Let's not forget that infamous story about how NASA spent millions of dollars trying to develop an ink pen that would work in zero gravity and essentially write upside-down.

The Russians solved the problem by sending their cosmonauts in space with PENCILS.

There exists a common urban legend claiming that the Americans spent millions of dollars developing the Space Pen, and the Russians used a pencil.[1] In fact, NASA programs have used pencils (for example a 1965 order of mechanical pencils[1]) but because of the danger that a broken-off pencil tip poses in zero gravity and the flammable nature of the wood present in pencils[1] a better solution was needed.

NASA never approached Paul Fisher to develop a pen, nor did Fisher receive any government funding for the pen's development. Fisher invented it independently, and then asked NASA to try it. After the introduction of the AG7 Space Pen, both the American and Soviet (later Russian) space agencies adopted it. Previously both the Russian and American astronauts used grease pencils and plastic slates.[2]

Another rumor has it that the Apollo 11 astronauts accidentally snapped off a switch which was necessary to permit them to fire the engine to return to Earth, and that a Fisher Space Pen was used to press this button. While the incident did occur, Buzz Aldrin has stated that, in fact, he used a felt-tip pen for this.[3]

Ya well just read the last line of the paragraph "As a result microwave ovens were banned in Russia in 1976; the ban was lifted after Perestroika."

So around the time of Chernobyl, they decided microwaves were less problemsome?

"That's because no one thinks the $10K TV is going to magically be worth $10K or more after 10 years of use if you simply leave it in your apartment when you leave."

Neither is a 10 year old kitchen...

"Amen brother, I tell that to friends all the time who are afraid to buy an expensive car (if they spend a ton of time in it),or an expensive computer (if they spend a ton of time on it),or an expensive TV (etc). "

Absolutely. But, the extreme is the guy who buys the porsche and can't drive stick, etc.

If you live in the car, I'm all for spending for the comfort and such, but the guy who can barely drive in the ferrari? Come on, its cheaper to just pay the girl for the BJ. ;-)

Computer, absolutely. We live on these things. Given the use we get, not only should you max out the computer, but you should have the triple monitor setup. You don't have to be a trader... you just save incredible amounts of time with dedicated screens. And 3 20 inch monitors get you MUCH more viewing area than a superlarge monitor, often cheaper.

Buy what you like, but with an eye towards the maintenance. One thing I hate about mid-tier ranges is their electronic controllers. I think GE created the idea, now it seems all the major brands have them. All GE electronic controllers will eventually "beep" for repair, even when the range is otherwise 100% functional. You then need to buy a new controller and have it swapped out or buy a replacement range. On the other hand, you can buy a "commercial grade" range without a controller from a major brand like Electrolux, which makes the Kenmore Pro line, for a tiny premium over the mid-tier ranges. It's beautiful, and doesn't have the designed to break components.

"One thing I hate about mid-tier ranges is their electronic controllers."

I hate these.

I hate that something as critical as igniting a gas flame in an oven (particularly in a city where many people actually store stuff in their ovens when they're not using them) is only one electronic signal -- or misfire vis-a-vis power interruption -- away from turning on by itself.

all gas stoves today have electronic ignitions, matt. But they don't have electornic clock controllers that supposedly "monitor" the maintenance of the range. It's not the ignition that gets replaced, its the clock "controller"

"all gas stoves today have electronic ignitions, matt. But they don't have electornic clock controllers that supposedly "monitor" the maintenance of the range. It's not the ignition that gets replaced, its the clock "controller"

If there's an electronic "controller" that can start the oven, an electronic GLITCH can start it just the same.

I think it's dangerous.

garfieldlady: I'm taking delivery tomorrow on this 24-inch Fisher & Paykel gas convection range, $1400 delivered:
http://www.us-appliance.com/or24sdmbgx1.html
The kind people on StreetEasy told me I should buy it. I don't know if it'll be amazing, and frankly I like black appliances, and dislike stainless steel, and prefer the slide-in backless look. But at least I can blame everyone here if I don't like it. And you can blame me if you get it and don't like it. So far, I anticipate hating its aversion to Fahrenheit, and also to Celsius and Kelvin ... it uses "gas numbers".

I fully agree with those who have said you should buy only for your own happiness, and not for some imaginary buyer in five years. Most buyers consider five years "old" (sadly), and unfortunately whatever you do, even for immediate sale, appeals only to that slim segment of the population that shares your particular taste. Developers try to design for the segment that is the largest slice of the pie, even if that slice is 4% -- because 4% is more than the 3.5% who like the second favorite look.

My second piece of advice is to think hard about features that you'll like. Convection, infrared broiler, preheat time, sealed burners, slidey-top grates, pasta-water burner, simmer burner, heavy oven racks (on sliders), selfclean ... you need to weigh those. One person I knew bought a massive Viking and was disappointed that it took 45 minutes to preheat the oven.

Don't forget to vent to the outside if at all possible. Range hoods are not supposed to be architectural elements, they're supposed to be workhorses.

All: I remember reading awhile ago that refrigerators were the original fast-changing style-obsolescence consumer products (excluding apparel, of course) ... even before cars (which originally changed looks more as a result of functional change than for the sake of getting people to buy newer-looking ones). I wish I could find the year-by-year graphic that showed the changing look ... it was really cool.

> frankly I like black appliances, and dislike stainless steel

The picture looks silver to me. Or, dare I say it, stainless steel.

> Developers try to design for the segment that is the largest slice of the pie, even if
> that slice is 4%

Agreed.. but we're not talking about finding the thing the next buyer will love... we're talking about not putting in the thing they will hate and have to rip out immediately. "Standard" looks might not make the next buyer fall love, but the "mistakes" might make them walk away.

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear: I bought it *despite* its stainless steel ... for its convection. Not available in other finishes.

"might make them walk away." cabinets, yes. floors, yes. construction needed, yes. gas oven instead of electric, or single instead of double wall ovens, maybe. Swappable <$4K appliances, I don't think so -- even cashpoor after purchase.

"...microwave ovens were banned in Russia in 1976; the ban was lifted after Perestroika."

You are kidding, right? Russians HAD NOT seen a microwave until the '90. Believe me.
Rumours like this just show ignorance. Russia, even now, is a medeival place 150km from Moscow.

wow after reading all of this very thoughtful stuff i have come to a few conclusions:
1) i will NOT buy a smeg. (also i realized that the smeg range i had been considering for $2,000 sells in the uk for about 600 pounds - ie $1,000 - which indicates to me that americans are paying a huge premium for a mid-to-low range product...imagine what it sells for in italy...they are probably giving them away.)
2) maybe you're right. maybe i should just get what i really like. if only it weren't so damn expensive. but what i would really like is the liebherr 24" fridge and the blue star 24" range. if anyone has thoughts or feelings about this, please say.

"...microwave ovens were banned in Russia in 1976; the ban was lifted after Perestroika."
You are kidding, right? Russians HAD NOT seen a microwave until the '90. Believe me."

Um yeah, I was hoping it was more obvious.

"...microwave ovens were banned in Russia in 1976; the ban was lifted after Perestroika."

A little explanation:

It was the SOVIETS (whose R&D rivaled and in many cases exceeded our own) who banned microwaves.

Many saw Perestroka as some sort of grand transition to democracy. Don't kid yourself. Perestroika was merely the Russians shedding the Soviet government -- and all of its attendant regulations -- and becoming a nearly lawless Wild Wild East of virtually NO regulations.

That's not a GOOD thing.

We are talking about everyday russians, soviets, bolsheviks dude. They obviously didn't have them in their households to cook food with in 1976.

"They obviously didn't have them in their households to cook food with in 1976."

Actually, they did.

My family came from Russia. Believe it or not, Russia was not Africa -- people weren't still living like serfs from 1535. They had all the modern conveniences Americans did -- only not quite as *much* (one car instead of two, one television instead of three, etc.).

Do you even know what the hell as "Bolshevik" is? Most of them died out in the '30s.

Damn, all that time my mother spent marching and lobbying for soviet jewry to escape and they had microwave ovens when we didn't!
Yeah dude I know what a bolshevik is. I also got the trivial pursuit answer right (answer was politburo)to stun my then girlfriend who thought I had to be cheating somehow.

Come on buddy, your taking this a little too personal (though I understand a little why).

Bolsheviki aside....

>maybe you're right. maybe i should just get what i really like.
>if only it weren't so damn expensive. but what i would really like
>is the liebherr 24" fridge and the blue star 24" range. if anyone
>has thoughts or feelings about this, please say.

Go for it. You're worth it. And then please have some of us over for dinner so that we can all be sure you made the right decision.

Garfield Lady -- figure out the added cost of the Liebherr and Blue Star above your 2nd/cheaper choices and then compute how many meals out in restaurants this is equal to. Then promise to use your fabulous new appliances for at least that many meals cooked at home instead of eating out in restaurants and there you are, breaking even. And if you continue to cook more at home because you love your new kitchen and new appliances, you may even end up saving money!

I want a chef. Tony Bourdain. He's intelligent and funny. I can't cook at all. I've never even turned my stove on.

"Garfield Lady -- figure out the added cost of the Liebherr and Blue Star above your 2nd/cheaper choices and then compute how many meals out in restaurants this is equal to. Then promise to use your fabulous new appliances for at least that many meals cooked at home instead of eating out in restaurants and there you are, breaking even. And if you continue to cook more at home because you love your new kitchen and new appliances, you may even end up saving money!"

So, what meals do you need cook on a gazilion dollar Viking or Wolf range that you can't cook on a $500 Hotpoint?

""They obviously didn't have them in their households to cook food with in 1976."

Actually, they did."

Matt baby, just once admit you don't know something. Your didactic pomp gets old...
I grew up in the USSR, and I'm not 40 yet. So: no microwaves, no Walkmans, in many cases no hot water, no phones. "No" to a lot of everyday stuff that's a staple here.

Anyone have good, less expensive alternatives to the Liebherr 30"? Looking to spend about $10k total on appliances. I'm a big cook, so will happily spend $5k-$6k on the range/oven, but but seems like the fridges jump for $2k-$6k+ VERY quickly and there's not much in-between. Size is an issue too, and counter-depth may end up being a necessity for the space (Good size kitchen but when we open it up, lose the original space for the fridge and it becomes a challenge to fit)

Anyone with experience having a full-fridge only and a drawer freezer?

FYI, this is for a 2br/2ba, so not outfitting a studio kitchen here...just awkwardness for the full fridge within the space.

Check out the Blomberg BRFB1450 on the AJ Madison website. Counter depth, 27 1/2" wide and over 6' tall for around 2K. Long time euro manufacturer but fairly new in US.

I recently bought a Fisher & Paykel counter depth with ice maker and water dispenser for $1700 (@RCI Discount delivered) and couldn't be happier. It's free standing, and is one of the only stainless fridges with a metal finish on the sides and top, though I have also seen them installed with custom cabinets that cover these elements. Aside from its good looks, it runs very quiet.

NYC10007 - I had full fridge w/ drawer freezer in my former house. I liked it - really not a big deal to be reaching down to open the drawer for ice/frozen items, and def gives more fridge space. Plus, the drawer, being a drawer, does not swing shut - which is nice.

I have a 24" LG fridge. Going on nine years and still strong.

I just went through this, with the 24" fridge. If you like stainless (I don't) Summit makes a couple of nice and reasonable ones - there's also a really pretty GE (just one, you have to look for it) and a spooky black steel Fagor. The LG gets great reviews, and seems well-designed, for cheap (it also comes in white). Blomberg has one that takes trim panels but feels like a dollhouse fridge. Go to Chelsea - between the Home Depot and the PC Richards, across the street from each other, you can see every last one of them on display.

(I ended up with the fridge of my dreams - a trim-panel Liebherr - last year's model, last one, closeout, on super-duper sale!).

Great, thanks for all of the suggestions everyone, very helpful!

You don't have to spend a lot to look good and have good functionality. We have a GE Profile fridge, an Amana range, and a Bosch dishwasher, all in black, along with black granite counters and backsplash, maple cabinets, and ceramic floors. The renovation was done 15 yrs ago, and when we had the apt on the market last yr, everyone loved the kitchen and thought it was newly renovated. The only expensive appliance is the dishwasher, and it's the only thing we've had to repair (~$200 for repair). I cook daily and for up to 20 people, so I can attest all my appliances work well. Although I wouldn't have chosen any of these appliances, they work well and show well.

My grandmother's humble Hotpoint is 50 years old and still going strong. It's cooked ethnic gourmet meals for up to 100 for half a century.

I have to laugh at these home "chefs" among us who "need" professional appliances. It's the COOK, not the appliances that make the meal.

I'm sure most of these people paying tens of thousands of dollars for professional kitchen appliances to reheat their delivered pizzas and Chinese takeout are the same people sending their kids to elite private schools, expecting the schools will somehow turn their kids into little Einsteins with guaranteed spots in Ivy League colleges.

In case anyone is interested in how it all worked out, i followed a lot of your advice and bought what i liked the best, and tried not to worry about resale value.

I got the Liebherr 24 inch stainless fridge, which has been fantastic - love it. Also, a 24 inch Bluestar range, which I am also extremely
pleased with. We cook a lot and the Bluestar has made cooking more fun and satisfying. Got tiles from Heath Ceramics, which are beautiful. Did cork on the floor, which has held up well so far (exactly 1 year). Am very happy with our Viola Park cabinets.

The only decision that I regret is going with Paperstone counter tops. These mark terribly and are not at all durable. I highly recommend that anyone thinking of installing Paperstone for their kitchen reconsider.

garfieldlady - good thread and nice of you to update everyone. Noticed your comment about Viola Park. Am considering them and am wondering about your experience. How helpful were they in measuring/designing, how long between ordering and delivery, did your own GC install them or did you use one of their recommended installers? Did you deal with the Soho location or California? Any other thoughts? Thanks for any additional info.

We have a 500 sq ft apartment. Renovated the kitchen a few years ago and sprang for the Liebherr. Love it. Quiet, roomy, and made best use of our vertical space. Under counter LG combo washer/dryer is a winner too. Freed up a "utility closet" that we turned into a walk-in storage space.