East Harlem Gifted school - TAG Young Scholars

Mmarquez: apples to apples please. Many UWS parents of any color would be delighted to send their child to the TAG program. You have any idea how difficult it is these days to get in? One would be very lucky if one's child get in? I am not afraid to beat about the bush - the real issue is "white parents are afraid to send their kids to failing, GENED schools in any neighborhood".

Got in (no question mark).

I don't like harshing on you, mmarquez, but let's wait a few years to see what you would do with your progeny. If they test well, they're set. If they don't test well, and their only option is your neighborhood, failing gened, let's see how strong your public school convictions are.

You xan harsh on me all you want, I am an idealist. But this article implies white parents are scared to send their kids there witjout offering any evidence of wjat there is to be scared about. I've taught there before and didn't see anything worrisome.

Also I know that I havent been on this board in awhile but I wanted to share that I'm oficiqlly becomong a teacher. In 1.25 years ill be teaching math in a nyc piblic high or midle school if I can find one thar will hire me. ALso I got an. An droid so I cannot type anymore.

Hey, congratulations, mmarquez110! Start hitting up Stuy and BS now, for "mentoring"!

I gotta agreee with nyc10023 - most idealists find they are not as idealistic with their own children.

I'am sure its rweally hard to get into those schools. For now ill bwe going wherever nyu sends me. Unless I can cxonvince them rto send me ro a local harlem scghool,

this statement speaks the loudest from the article...

TAG’s kindergartners, almost all of whom can read and write, clustered one April afternoon on multicolored floor cushions with reading books, chatting happily with one another as they waited to be called to paint flowerpots.

my son is in a regular class in a good school and ALL OF THE KIDS CAN READ. saying that almost all, means that this Gifted program has students that are worse then regular schools in regular classes.

marquez, be a realiast not an idealist... oh, wait, you don't have kids in school yet. just wait.

ab, what? my daughter is in a TT private school and didn't learn to read until 2nd grade. meaningless.

i hope you're joking ar.

i'm absolutely not. it's quite meaningful when large numbers of children in 1st grade aren't reading, but K doesn't matter in the slightest.

and my child, who consistently now gets As in english and history, did not read until 2nd grade. her school has no need to teach for the test results, and didn't care in the slightest. there were other children, however, whose parents were told that the children needed extra work.

there have been numerous studies showing that the ability to read by 5 or 6 is not at all correlated to later success.

Remember, you gotta go here on a daily basis.
109th between 2nd and 3rd is not the most convenient stop by any means... by far the worst of the three.
It's completely out of the way unless you live in UES, Upper Manhattan or the Bronx maybe.

sorry ar, just my son loves reading at 5 and can't imagine him not reading till 7. i was doing fractions by 7, but i was taught in europe and we needed only 10 years to learn more then most students learn in 12 in US.

All the children can read and write in kindergarten? Are you sure or are you guessing?

A few thoughts:

1) Europe is a big place, IME, they tend to push reading early in the UK, not so much the Scandinavian countries (in particular Finland).
2) Public school has a divide and conquer approach, esp. with NCLB and testing. They "throw" reading starting K and if it sticks, good bcs that means they can focus on fewer kids in 1st grade and so on. It's not about whether the ability to read by 5 or 6 is meaningful, it's just the way they are choosing to use their (limited) resources, rightly or wrongly.
3) Demographics. While many private schools in Manhattan foster socio-economic and racial diversity, the fact remains that you have to apply to get in and you have to fill in the boxes to get financial aid. That requires some kind of gumption/commitment/whatever. This is quite different from most (minus the striving, over-anxious, rabid parent bodies of the few talked-about public schools) public schools. It is probably less concerning if a few kids in private K or 1st grade don't read, but public schools, different story.
No reading specialists, lower level of family support, etc.

BTW, people in the know tell me that the cutoff for a District 3 (that's UWS) child to get into TAG K is 97. So it's not an option for most.

look, ab, i started reading at 4. prior to at least 6 it is far more important that the child be read to, rather than read. the difference between their comprehension levels and their reading abilities is enormous. they need to be challenged analytically, and the stuff that they read simply does not do that.

doing things earlier does not always mean better. we took advantage of the fact that our daughter disdained reading to read to her. in second grade she bypassed chapter books altogether and moved from the "slow" reading group to the most "advanced" reading group. her school didn't even TEACH reading in K. they had book time, and they could read or look at pictures.

i know it sounds counterintuitive, but it matters not a bit whether or not children are not reading in K. it matters tremendously if they are not being read to, and that you will not be able to tell necessarily before you select a school. many of the best readers start out as reluctant readers. my daughter thought the things she could read were stupid, so she didn't try, and the school told me it was best not to force the issue. she also hated writing initially, looking down at her own efforts, and now she loves writing.

AR's comment goes to why public schools push reading so early. An overworked public school teacher barely has the time to delve into why a kid isn't reading (be it for good reasons or bad reasons). That's why they push it, because in general, they don't know what is going on at home.

my daughter's K class had two teachers for 16 kids. her 1st grade reading group had one teacher for 4 kids, 2nd 1 for 5. they have a lot more opportunity to delve into whether or not there are underlying causes for delays, so as 10023 says, they don't need to push as early as the public system.

Yeah, perfectionists tend to have those issues.

Another reason that parents of public K-ers should make sure their kids can read a few words - the solution that most public schools have for non-readers is to hold back.

Of coirse not that all k students can read and write. K is not even required in nyc. if u can already read in k Its bc u went to pre-k or had a lot of parental support. Of course that's going to help you suceed in school, especialy in the early grades

stupid measures like how early children read are part of the current attempt to render teaching and intellectual progression of young children a generic, quantifiable process--as in education for profit--charter school--mass market curriculum--teach to the test

many excellent schools shun such attempts to quantify, even dispensing with AP's and other tests as limiting to a truly productive classroom environment

a lot of this crap is about attempts to privatize education--where wall st and corporate america foam at the mouth to get a piece of the money spent on education--clearly they have our children's best interests in mind

kinda like social security, our prison system, health care

Wbottom, very well-put.

Worst of all, this kind of early pushing will probably turn out to turn kids off to reading ... and being read to by a parent for another couple of years would help them bond with both the parent and the reading.

Scandinavia, from what I hear, doesn't teach reading (in school at least) until the age of 7, and they seem to wind up with well-educated people. Fine country, Scandinavia is.

You ascribe too much intelligence and/or design to corporate America. There is genuine frustration by many who care that our children, given the $ that is spent, trail others in the 1st World, and increasingly in the 2nd World. So they try to measure, and that process gets corrupted by the vast amounts of $ spent in testing. If you don't test or teach to the test, fine, that works for middle-class parent bodies. If they don't measure, how do they measure progress in more at-risk schools? People like to vilify, without giving reasonable alternatives. Or we could just implement head-start or state-subsidized daycare from day 1 (explicitly acknowledging that many parents out there aren't doing an adequate job of feeding, nurturing their kids). But Americans will never go for that. Or just spend every last cent bringing bodies into the classroom. Reducing class sizes to 10, with the theory that it can't hurt. Americans will never go for that either.

my daughter, accepted at several ivies just this year, read "late"

go figure

(and she aint a legacy..dats for dam sure)

it just blows my mind that my daughter might have been considered "lagging" in the public school system, or even kept back a year. she turned 8, btw, at about the same time she started 2nd grade, so in public school she would have been in 3rd grade.

It's true in Germany as well: no formal schooling until children are 7.
This whole fad about early education and testing is ridiculous.

Well, except that she has you as a parent. So, in reality, it probably would have been fine because you would have been an advocate for her and they would understand the situation. It's not like they want to hold kids back, it's just that in general, that's the only fix they can think of.

many of the kids are fine. but i do know of one child who struggled horribly with this issue at 116. the mother had a very difficult time. they didn't hold her back, but they insisted that they would if she didn't learn by the end of 1st grade (at 6 years 9 months). they managed to get her to read, but with a lot of tears. she went to spence at middle school.

read to em

period..from when they're too young to "understand", til they are to big to fit on the sofa with you

best parenting you can do....so much (intellectual and emotional) will simply fall into place if you do this

see jim trelease for an infomercially presented version of this

Yeah, it sucks for some that they are so rigid. On the other hand, at least that child had parents who were able to do something about it. Those who get completely shafted by the system don't even know they're shafted.

Wbottom: absolutely. Regular SE posters are probably not the type of parent who would lack in this regard anyway.

wbottom, congrats.

10023, many are shafted before they even start.

Yup. And the people who are quibbling about when to read, I presume, are not in that group.

my daughter hated being read to when she was a toddler. i was horrified. we started a mommy and me program (luckily) at age two where the instructor was reading books that were listed as appropriate for 4-6 year olds, and she took to books immediately.

I wasn't going to go there, mmarquez. But I just can't help myself. Why is a travesty if parents consider the racial makeup of a school? In our racially-charged society, there can be consequences to a child if he or she goes to a school where he or she is a minority. It's one thing if it can't be helped (minority going to a majority-X school in a majority-X society) but another thing when someone has a choice and chooses to become a member of a minority in school but isn't a minority otherwise.

I guess a good question is "What is that TAG school doing to market itself to white downtown parents?"

Ah, another can of worms. Given the racial breakdown of scores, I don't know that it would be desirable for TAG or the DOE to market TAG to white parents.

move the location of that school west a few blocks and there will be more white kids coming. remove the TAG middle school from co-mingling with the Projects middle school and there will be different enrollment.

i've seen kids who were going to Gifted middle schools in "bad" neighborhoods drop out in the 10th grade and in jail by 11th. if they would have gone to a regular middle school in their neighborhood, they would have been better off.

i agree that the teachers teach to the test, that's what the Board of Ed is requiring. on the other hand, my children will never have ratios of teachers to students that aboutready talked about. not everyone can plot $30-50 per year on kids education. some just earn that much to live.

actually....actually, for college app purposes, better to be a minority specific to composition at one's school...try being asian at stuyvesant..totally unfair...much better to be one of few asians at bronxville hs

an only fairly strong white college applicant would likely fare better applying as one of few whites in a mostly-black school, than as an average applicant in a mostly white school

ab, you have to get something for $35k. but when we first started looking it was "only" $20k.

i realize that the situation is not comparable to what most people have. and if i had more than one child i wouldn't have been able to do it, at least not the entire way through.

ok, guys, i must admit, i'm lazy....

i don't read to kids... my 5 year old reads to my 3 year old, so the younger one is getting what he's suppose to get from his brother not dad.. lol

"stupid measures like how early children read are part of the current attempt to render teaching and intellectual progression of young children a generic, quantifiable process--as in education for profit--charter school--mass market curriculum--teach to the test"

Yes, better to hold noone accountable.

Tests will never be perfect, but neither is ignorance.

We have kids promoted who can't read or function properly, because the teacher's unions don't want teachers (or the politicians they bought) held accountable for anything.

"many excellent schools shun such attempts to quantify, even dispensing with AP's and other tests as limiting to a truly productive classroom environment"

Thats great for top schools.

Problem is when crap schools use that excuse to cover up the fact that their kids aren't learning anything at all.

a lot of this crap is about attempts to privatize education--where wall st and corporate america foam at the mouth to get a piece of the money spent on education--clearly they have our children's best interests in mind

kinda like social security, our prison system, health care

"where wall st and corporate america foam at the mouth to get a piece of the money spent on education"

Of course, can they do any worse than the current? Nope.

Not to mention, if it was really this idealogical difference about going private, how about then just allowing schools to hold teachers accountable.

Nope, UFT is against that too.

Its bs cover for a union that cares more about its own jobs than kids.

10023-my asumptions are that these parents are assuming thqt tag is better than their other public schools but trhey are not enrolling bc they perceive that it will be unsafe or uncomfortable for their child. There is not really any evidence ofwhat they fear so I think that they should at leastr give it a shot( no pun intended)

elsewhere knows education--he uses his stuy hs experience to write the snippiest beck/hannity garbage all the day long....on streeteasy...bravo

umm, yeah, wow. after reading that article, as a white parent with two white daughters, i would be in no rush to send my girls to TAG. when these issues come up, i'm always reminded of an old coworker (white, social science PhD, etc...) who lived in Harlem with his wife and 2 kids (not sure what part of Harlem; i'm not really familiar with the diff. neighborhoods). i'm pretty sure the kids went to public school. he came into work upset one day b/c his son suffered a broken arm from some of the "neighborhood kids" as he put it. and apparently, this wasn't the first incident between his son and these kids. who knows, maybe his kid was a punk, but my reaction was get the fu@k out of Harlem (or at least the neighborhood). whatever, chicka chicka boom boom! i'm fine being the scared white female who stays in her comfort zone. that said, if my daughter(s) tested high enough for a citywide, i might give TAG a look, but those breakdowns are pretty hard to shrug off.

I love how none of the writers have any first hand knowledge of the school - you have not personally visited, you have not made any attempt to speak to a student or parent or teacher.

My child is at this school and your unexamined assumptions about security are laughable.

If your progeny is anything like you -- i.e., unthorough, too lazy to do independent research, unable to distinguish between hearsay and truth, all too willing to accept other peoples' assumptions -- then the kids don't belong at TAG. They won't have the necessary inquisitiveness and mental rigor to make it there.

White parents: if you have problems respecting minority authority figures, your kids don't belong here, assuming they get in.

Your kids will also be culturally, socially, intellectually disadvantaged when the nation turns brown/black/yellow majority in the coming generation. You are crippling them with your unwarranted ignorance and fear.