Battery Park City, riverhouse

Oops got caught up. Other than riverhouse, if you've bought in visionaire millennium etc or even TriBeCa like 101 Warren / 200 chambers please chime in. Thanks.

And yes I have read all the bpc riverhouse threads with great interest from the past 2-3 years :) just trying to get more info if it's possible.

With property values depressed, will the city reassess some of the properties in the downtown area? I'm curious because many properties are selling for about a third less than during the boom.

Well, even if they reassess properties and values come down, they still need to "make budget." So that means while values are down, wouldn't they just raise the tax rate itself so that it's zero sum?

@newaccount: what properties are you looking at that are about 1/3rd less? mainly battery park city? or other areas such as FiDi (which I think are down too)?

Also, wonder what the implications are for Battery Park City, given that NYC (Bloomberg) is thinking of a potential buyout/take-over of the BPCA (which runs/maintains battery park city).

http://www.dnainfo.com/20101115/downtown/city-weighing-takeover-of-battery-park-city-mayor-bloomberg-says

FiDi is where I'm talking about. Buildings like 15 Broad and the John Street condos have come down significantly since 2006, maybe not a third, but 25% is realistic. These properties are sitting on the market and I'm sure a lowball offer will be accepted for some of these apts when you get to the bargaining table. Some buildings are now phasing out their abatements, like 80 John, 120 Greenwich and 88 Greenwich.

A reassessment and adjustment would be great if the other older buildings pay more of the city's tax burden. High carrying charges are an albatross to the building's value. Some BPC carrying charges are about 75% of the cost of a comparable rental. That makes the apt worth close to zero, especially in a low liquidity environment like today. There's also the risk factor with the land lease which makes it more difficult to secure a loan. I would not touch BPC right now unless I had money to burn.

BPC is a great enclave to live in with an un-Manhattan feel, but I don't like the cookie cutter new construction and low ceilings. Some apartments are nice, like the Millenium, but it's also too close to the WSH. Another thing I don't like about BPC is the distance to the subway. Oh yea, what about the talk of a big flood?

Don't do it. Other common charges don't rise at steady amount like that. They're usually flat and then move in step changes. I think you've answered your own question when you describe what happens in 2030. Buy in 200 Chambers, 101 Warren instead. I looked at both buildings and they're great.

Agreed on common charges are usually flat (unless there are assessments, etc). How about taxes in NYC? Is 3% increase the norm?

Looking at 200 Chambers and 101 Warren Street, the prices are much higher for a 3BR/2BR (in some cases ~2 to ~4 times higher.

A 3BR at Riverhouse is around $1,000 PSF.
A 3BR at 200 Chambers is $1,862 PSF, and a 2BR at 200 Chambers is $1,388 PSF.
A 3 BR at 101 Warren is $3,700 PSF and a 2BR is $1,790 PSf.

I can't completely speak for lorenzo, but I did some consulting for him, and one reason they bought in BPC was that they were combining apartments to create a mega-apartment, so there wasn't a lot of substitute availability of what they were looking for. (Also, astounding river views).

Taxes, in my experience, generally go up. In boom times, those increases are small (and Bloomberg was especially smart about smoothing them during the boom) but in a recession, when there's lower tax revenue from real estate sales, the city still has to run and they come after property owners.

CCs are a different story. Those run somewhat according to the lifecycle of buildings, and IMHO, if you buy a fairly new building -- whether it's the Visionaire or 200 Chambers, which were built within, what, 6 years of each other? in twenty years, you're going to need to start rebuilding it. Your roof is going to deteriorate, your window technology is going to be vastly better, your environmental standards will be different -- whatever. So I think CCs in most buildings are going to, for lack of a better term, increase their rate of increase as buildings age.

Does that help?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

@frontporch --> Thanks for chiming in. I'm actually really glad that you're commenting because I've been a long-time user on SE and have come to view your opinion as always helpful and informed.

My biggest concern is around the fact that over the next 25 years, the monthly carrying charges (not including mortgage) will essentially rise from $3.6K to $8K (roughly 3-4% annually over 25 years, power of compounding). I know there's inflation to take into account, but from what you're saying, it does sound like a majority of condos would also increase at a similar pace over time (let's call it 3.5% annually). Meaning, if I buy in a non-BPC condo and it's my CC/taxes today are at $2K (vs. $3.6 at Riverhouse), could I also expect to see my $2K rise to ~$5K? $5K monthly is obviously nothing to sneeze at, but far better than $8K+ on RH (based on my projections).

Just wary of investment appreciation over the next 10-15 years, given the rise in ground rent and instability of land-lease.

raymond,

my colleague 30_yrs would tell you that if everything else is equal, you'd rather pay a higher price with lower monthlies, because a high price might be financeable (sp?) by the next buyer, whereas monthlies have to be shouldered in cash.

I think the BPC buyer should be someone who "has" to live there -- a dog person, a person who commutes to NJ, a person who values the level of green building (which is unequaled by any other 'hood in NYC).

If you're not one of those people, I think the Triburbia buildings such as 200 Chambers and 101 Warren are valid options, though the level of finishes isn't what it is, in, say, the Visionaire.

If FiDi is an option (and it sounds like it might be) I'd also be really curious to see what you think of the high-end rentals there. I'm going to have kittens until I can get in to 8 Spruce.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

I totally agree with fp's assessment on BPC. I would stay away from buying. Renting is a great option in BPC, though.

Ali,

Is this what the future holds for fees for the newer BPC buildings?

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/438780-condo-21-south-end-avenue-battery-park-city-new-york

The fees aren't for naught, obviously. Goes to maintain the grounds, parks, upkeep, esplanade etc. As well as you are now zoned for two excellent schools, ps89 or ps276. Consider it like tuition...

The wildcard is if Bloomberg returns BPC to the city. Very possible that the taxes will be reduced and the $30MM it costs to run the BPCA will no longer be needed either.

always buy with liquidity in mind

try to buy "right": buy so that if, despite anticipating youll want to own a place for a long while, you need to sell for unforeseen reasons during a bad market, and/or sooner than expected; you have a product to sell with a relatively large pool of potential buyers

the pool of buyers for landlease properties is small, as is the pool of buyers for low price/high monthly properties, for all sorts of very good reasons--you dont want to need to sell a property of this type in any sort of hurry, or in a bad market

Since ps 276 has been around for 1 year it might be a bit early to call it excellent, but you make a good point about the tuition analogy. You don't pay that tuition at ps234 but you obviously pay (and get) a higher sale price instead.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I don't see how returning BPCA to the city will lower taxes. Presumably BPCA provides services for PILOT (that whole recent thing about corruption seemed to point out some spending on business lunches that looked pretty minimal, in my opinion).

So if the area switches over to the city, won't the city just charge taxes for providing the same services?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

It's really more speculation that taxes could be reduced. I think there are too many variables but it is still quite possible that the costs could be lowered.

But remember, there are many fees that BPCA charges to residents beyond just the PILOT tax (ground rent, civic maintenance, upkeep -- not sure if I got all the terms exactly right). Really depends on how the city would maintain the BPC area/upkeep... it's def. possible that the city could just charge the same, and in fact, BPC could even see a deterioration in services since the money would presumably also go fill budget gaps at the city-wide level.

Bottom line, no one knows. But as we know, things only go up over time so wouldn't bank on a reduction in taxes.

if anyone thinks a city takeover will result in lower taxes pls follow me to a bridge for sale mere minutes away from bpc.

Don't think so negatively! Wall Street is coming back and our property taxes may get bailed out afterall. Corporate sponsorship of sections of the parks will continue like it's 2007 all over again!

i'd suggest staying away from bpc and looking in tribeca instead. less headache, but much less supply / inventory unfortunately.

"Common charges without the sponsor discount will be approximately 1.6k."

I am seeing that common charges are listed around $700/month. so is the sponsor giving a discount of about $1000? how long is the duration of this discount?

are the taxes in BPC tax deductable?

the pilot in bpc is the same as real estate taxes - same deductibility - as far as i understand it

the discount schedule is in the offering plan, i don't totally remember but i think its about 40% of the total this year and tails off about 10% a year for the next few years - but you need to check the offering plan (or call the sales office)

i see someone asking a question of me way on top - and frontporch doing her usual great job answering. We ended up with several apartments in this building, for various personal and potentially investment purposes, so happy to answer any questions about riverhouse vs other bpc vs other tribeca, as far as our decisions. but as frontporch says, we bought for a specific unit configuration that we got early in the sales process, and we were fairly naive when we bought (although more experienced now)

lorenzonyc. do you live there now? can i ask you a few questions off site? i am at ekartash@mac.com

thanks

i do live there now. i will email you separately.

lorenzo how do you like it and why did you select RH vs visionaire or others?

When we chose RH, we were living in the Solaire and it was 2006. We knew Visionaire was coming, but it was only a brochure at that point - no sales office or plans. Given its the same organization as Solaire, which we liked a lot, we thought about waiting. However, we decided on RH vs Visionaire (vs 101 Warren which was the other one that was coming up at that time) because we liked north battery park a lot. I know south battery park is near a lot of subways etc but it felt more isolated when we walked around there - the west side highway is much more of a barrier and there is nothing once you get cross it, vs north battery where the whole foods complex was coming (that was a big deal for us) and tribeca is really easy to get to (we go to the green market on greenwich almost every weekend).

I did walk around visionaire when it was done, although we were already set up in RH. I liked it quite a bit - well constructed although some really strange layouts for apartments with unusable corners, good common spaces (RH's amenity level on the 2nd floor is okay but not great). Ideally, I would have loved to have seen Visionaire built in north bp and have more terrace apartments, but on balance, we are glad to have bought in RH because of the north bp location.

By the way, we never did take 101 Warren seriously. Coudn't get comfortable with being right on the west side highway (which I suppose the back of Visionaire kind of is). RH is incredibly quiet.

Hi Everyone,

I'm now authoring a chapter on a book in buying and selling real estate in Manhattan but my chapter is just for Battery Park City. I am a resident for thirteen years and a mommy for five years and involved with the Authority. I am also a writer besides an agent with Elliman and I have written articles on Visionaire and Battery Park City for Downtown Magazine on a monthly feature called "Downtown Mom". In the Spring issue which just hit newsstands I authored an article on the 26 acres of Hudson Yards.

For the book I just got off the phone with the Authority..the book comes out in the summer. As for PS 276, THANK GOD my daughter has a seat for kindegarden.

If you have any questions please reach out to me. I am all for my neighbors maximizing on their properties.

Truly yours,

Maria Hadjidemetriou
mhadjidemetriou@elliman.com