Park Avenue / Fifth Avenue

There is no such website of which I am aware. It is building by building and best you have a broker who specializes in this area. There are also many unspoken restrictions in the buildings of this area. I do not know your background, but sometimes brokers use "code" to communicate to you that a board in a particular building would never seriously consider you. Rejections come with no reasons, but even among board members the restrictions are not overtly discussed. Race, religion, ethnic background, perceived inappropriateness of your pedigree will not be directly referenced even behind closed doors. Instead focus falls on things like"he hasn't the type of charity involvement we prefer," or "no one at my club knows him--I don't trust this fellow--what do we really know about him anyway," or "his money is so new I don't think he can handle it and then we'll be stuck with him in the building after he squanders his new found loot," or "his children are in public schools and we don't like that." It is unlikely anyone will come right out and say, "The last thing we need is another Jew here." So the brokers who know the game steer you away from the problem buildings but don't want trouble so try to find ways of explaining this that don't suggest illegal policies of the buildings which could only result in trouble. Don't take what you're being told at face value in this area--read between the lines. You are seeking entry into a very rarified realm. The rich are indeed different, and so are their buildings.

I have bought 2 apartments on Park Avenue and in my experience, the 10x or 3x or whatever is usually a deterrent to keep certain buyers away. Many Park Avenue buildings don't have such a hard line formula (except certain buildings like 740 Park will require $100 million or more). For most Park Avenue buildings, 2x is usually enough, assuming you fit the profile/pedigree they would like. There are even exceptions for 2x. You need a really good buyer's broker who is familiar with these buildings and can advocate for you.

trust your agent.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

dont ever trust your agent...and in this cae, if your agent is being oddly cryptic about this issue one of the few issues to which he/she might actually bring value) there is a good chance he/she lacks this important knowledge--any decent UES coop broker knows the board reqs of most if not all buildings in which they might sell--and would have already filtered stock down to the few buildings appropriate for your weak financials

wbottom: I think Ali means that a broker who knows each building's requirements can't come out and share them directly. That's probably true. On the other hand, Wbottom could be right: it's possible that your broker is clueless and is using "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" as a smokescreen.

So it really comes down to the agent's track record in the neighborhood, and your own view of his/her credibility. If you're working with Serena Boardman, it's probably safe to say she knows, and she's just protecting her sources. If you're working with your cousin from Staten Island, not so much.

Thanks, W81, I did mean that.

Often there aren't hard-and-fast rules. Often, you tell a listing agent (or a board member) your buyer's story, and you get feedback from that...that's not necessarily meant to be shared.

If you think that your agent is doing that for you, trust him/her. If not, get a new agent.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

5ave: why not reach out to a broker like Sharon Baum? I am not affiliated with her in any way, but she's done enough uber-white-glove that she should be able to tell you where to look.

balderdash--

building financial requirements are well known among good brokers in their respective markets--and they are usually quite formulaic--and, where a borker is discussing suitability of specific buildings with his/her buyer, there is nil re financial reqs to be secretive or cryptic about--

like i said, it's probably the last bit of intelligence a buyer cant easily access on their own on the internet--if youre trying to buy a coop UES park ave and/or west, and your broker cant immediately identify financial reqs of most buildings discussed, and your financials arent gilt-edged, get a new borker--

dont ever trust a broker--use em if they help you--always advocate/verify for yourself--same as with any salesman selling you a big ticket item

There are decisions being made that have nothing to do with finances.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bOQCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=new+york+magazine+%22co-op+board+hell%22&source=bl&ots=HxrfyQmU3k&sig=qBVdUqvo12oLTVaDXdTkZFB6utY&hl=en&ei=O-JJTb69EZPEgAelldUc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=true

Frankly, finances are the least of it. That part is fairly mechanical. If you have 3x or whatever is liquid assets and you are being steered away from a building that you are pretty sure requires no more than that, then you have other problems. Insisting on the agony of applying is not likely to yield results that make the effort worth it. No broker is ever going to say, "oh this building discriminates against people with your background," or "you're too brown for this building." The broker still may wish to do business in that building in the future, does not want to be sued for tortious interference with the business operation of the coop corporation or slander or something, couldn't prove the fact anyway. This whole thing is becoming silly. Whoever the OP is, I doubt they are as doe-eyed naive about all this as the post could be read to suggest. This stuff isn't exactly secret. Many buildings in the area described have been "restricted" in one way or another for as long as they've stood. Others don't even want to let you look at the lobby if your name isn't Astor, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller and even then if there's a blood-feud between the blue bloods you aren't getting in either. Let the super rich hash out these gross injustices of the universe.

I would be happy to go over everything with regard to your questions...I have been a broker for over 40 years, most of my business is the high end....Blanche.... Feel free to call me at 917 359 9720.

it seems that if you thought your agent truly clueless, you would have said that. you use the words "oddly cryptic" which implies that on some level you already understand the ugly truth she is trying to communicate to you.

the op's inquiry was about finacial requirements and formulas. most high end buildings have formulas, and many even publish building bylaws in which they are included.

discrimination based on race or religion in coops is largely a thing of the past--a past that is shameful

a hollywood-type buffoon with questionable net-worth of any race/religion would have trouble with any highend coops east or west side--

coops have the right to enforce stringent financial requirements, given the communal liability that exists among shareholders, among other standards--this is one reason NY RE has held in slightly better than the rest of the country

there are condos for those who don't like the application process, and anything else associated with coops--for those who dont like townhouses, there are houses

Wbottom: if you think restricted buildings along Park and Fifth are a thing of the past, you are woefully naive about the area. There are fewer such buildings, but they still very much exist. They are just craftier and more subtle in how they go about it.

KW, why do you know so much about it?

Blanche -- Sorry, but Ali got here first.

thanx ME!

ali

Does the background of the Broker come into play? Does having a Broker with a "pedigree" help vs. one without, let's say for example, one who has worked for the NY Post?

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I suppose I should have picked a better way to describe my broker than "oddly cryptic". Or perhaps I shouldn't have even blamed my broker at all. Each building has different financial requirements and I am not yet aware of them all. I don't believe she was trying to steer me away from certain buildings.

Some people have suggested a condo would be good choice. I am in finance and could never bring myself to paying the premium condos generally sell for. It just doesn't make financial sense to me. Also, I do like the idea that with certain co-ops you have more assurances that the other residents in the building will continue to pay their maintenances. E.g. the owners are often less financially leveraged.

There really aren't that many co-ops in the area I described. Now I am just keeping a list with each building's requirements as I learn them. Below are the liquidity requirements and financing options I have learned so far. Input on any additional buildings would be appreciated. My broker has helped me with this. But I wouldn't be on streeteasy.com if I wanted to leave everything up to my broker.

480 Park - 2X purchase price in liquidity - 50% financing allowed
535 Park - 75% financing allowed
550 Park - $20 million liquidity - all cash
555 Park - 3X purchase price in liquidity - all cash
570 Park - 50% financing allowed
580 Park - $500 financing allowed
630 Park - 50% financing allowed
53 East 66th - less than 2X purchase price is ok - 33% financing allowed
3 East 77th - 10X in net worth; 3X in liquidity - all cash
825 Fifth - 10X in net worth; 3X in liquidity - all cash

apparently alison has the shill-franchise here, even tho she knows little of UES/Park/5th market

kyle--i cant comment on race issues but for buildings i have owned in, and none would be tolerated there--i concede that blacks are under-represented in uptown coops, but cant say this is based on discrimination--i challenge you, though, to produce specific buildings that have anything but a reasonable mix of jewish and christian owners--there is a legacy of discrimination based on religion, but it just isnt out there these days

I'm with KyleWest on this one. We'd like to believe that this sort of thing doesn't exist but I think you're being quite naive if you think that it doesn't. In some of these buildings, it's like trying to join an elite private club & they either want you or they don't.

wbottom, what makes you think I know "little of" the UES/Park/5th market?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

W, it's not just religion, as kyle alluded to earlier in this thread, though that's certainly a big one. This does still happen; I think you're being a bit naive about it. My uncle dealt with it in the 70s and 80s, and some of the old-timers on Park and 5th are still in those same buildings obviously. I'm convinced old dogs learn new tricks so easily in this case. Give it another generation and maybe this will be a thing of the past. Maybe.

*not convinced*, duh.

so youre saying discrimination based on religion (jewish vs christian) still exists? name a building that has few or no jewish or christion owners--you can't--welcome to NY Coops circa 2011

now there may be numerous reason to choose not to buy a coop--and i dont currently live in one--and you can choose not to--but the days of all jewish, or wasp buildings are well over, thankfully

one thing is for sure, these buildings discriminate against those without significant net worth, something that is well within their rights

I believe that 720 Park requires buyers to have a net worth of 10 times the purchase price.

Does anyone have any additional information on 630 Park? Thanks.