Combinations and Renovations

It will cost you about 150-200k. We did a gut renovation last year ( turned a large two bed into 3) with wiring , new kitchen, 2 baths with medium to high end supplies and it cost us $120k. The actual tearing down of walls is no biggie , but getting the permit takes a while. Our complete gut Reno took 10 weeks , but I think we were extremely lucky that everything flowed smoothly

For medium high-end 150-200k sounds a little low depending on that square footage. $200-300/sf will get you pretty high-end. Decent custom kitchen could cost $50k, basic nyc bathroom is $25-30k a piece, then you have the skimming, painting, refinishing the floors, electrical, and A/C. Construction should not take more than 4 months, again depending on the square footage, but most buidlings will not allow more than that.

I think you should definitely have some designers and contractors take a look, no harm in scheduling those consultations. I would be happy to sit down with you and a contractor. Please feel free to email me.

Gary Eisner
geisner@builtinstudio.com
www.builtinstudio.com

Is it a condo or co-op? Regardless the building will want prints and can sit on them for 4-8 weeks easy. If you have to file with D.O.B. add 2 months before you even get in the apartement to do work. No less than 4 monhts if everythign goes your way-9 months is realistic. 200k sounds low, even if you dont go ovrboard with renovation. 400k sounds more realistic.

It CAN be done for 200k with mid to high level supplies. You just have to do the dirty work and shop around so you know how much everything costs and so the contractors know that you are well informed.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I think you are all out of your minds. Maybe we describe "medium to high end" differently. Here is a cost estimate as I see it if the OP specifies all her own finishes, does a ton of legwork, and really watches costs (these estimates are minimums), because you have essentially described a gut renovation:
$25,000: Architect/expeditor including construction oversight but not interior decoration
$50,000: Kitchen including appliances and custom millwork
$75,000: Modest bathroom renos (add $25K if you want tempered glass shower partitions, fancy stone and more expensive lighting/fixtures
$25,000: Electrical upgrades throughout (more if feed itself must be upgraded)
$50,000: Reconfiguring, mouldings
$10,000+: Door upgrades if needed with casings including hardware
$10,000: Custom closets throughout by company like Creative Closet
$15,000: Lighting fixtures throughout
$ 3,000: Floors refinished
$10,000: Paint including only partial skim coats. $15K-20K if entire apt. to be skim coated)
$ 2,000: Misc fees including building architect approval, application fees, etc.
___________
$275,000

Others may scream and shout I am wrong, but I am right. If you drop the "high end" part of "mid to high end" you can bring the costs down. This would mean no custom millwork in kitchen; making do with existing doors; going very modest on bathrooms without fancy Robern medicine cabinets; tempered glass; elaborate tilework or costly stone; getting modest lighting fixtures; don't get those expensive types of kitchen appliances; maybe forego crown mouldings...

If you go into this thinking you are getting anything approaching "high end" for $200,000 you are nuts. Never, never happening.

Timing: If you take a super active role, from closing to move-in you are looking at 8 months minimum for a coop at the fastest. Could be longer if you aren't completely on the ball and ultra organized. If a condo, I don't know how much you shave off this.

kylewest is 100% correct.

I would even say $350K. No way is kitchen $50K. More like $75K. Appliances are $15-$20K alone.

lkgsoh: you are absolutely right. My estimate is a floor, not a ceiling.

The bulk of the cost diff. between the "I did it for X" and the "over 200/sqft" opinions hinges on the labor costs.

Thanks everyone (esp. Kylewest and Lkgsoh) for the comments--this has been eye opening.

A few points of clarification:
1. The building is a co-op, though I'm not sure how lenient/stringent in timing, permits, etc.
2. We're not expecting elaborate mosaics or Robern medicine cabinets (Are those standard now?), but were planning on custom millwork, crown moldings, new doors, high-end kitchen appliances.
3. Timing is obviously important to us, so delays could be quite costly.

Does this change any of the math above? Are there any costs specific to a combination that I'm not factoring in? What are building policies generally on removing the front door to the second unit (as it would affect the hallway)?

If you are thinking of incorporating a piece of common hallway into the combination, you will have to get coop approval, but, more important, you will probably be allocated additional shares and therefore increased maintenance.

Jsw363: also look at the DOB filings in the building for the names of architects & GCs who have worked in the building. Then leave a note for the owners w/ doorman to see if they'll share their experience.

If you combine the apts, the coop may want to issue a new proprietary lease. That can cost a bit (up to a few thousand $ I believe). It is questionable if you can remove an entry door; that would depend upon fire codes and building codes and the coop's own view of it. You haven't mentioned the removal of the second kitchen or whatever it is you plan to do with it. You may not keep two in one apartment of the size you are discussing. Converting one to a bath is not necessarily possible, permissible, feasible. I strongly suggest you find an architect now; do a walk though with the architect and discuss what you want and weather it is possible. I don't know how familiar you are in this subject, but one big issue is often the prohibition of moving or expanding a "wet area" over space that had been a "dry" area. In most coops this means no changing of the bathroom or kitchen foot prints to make them larger by even 1".

You MUST build the possibility of delays into your budget. You MUST include 20% cost overruns into the budget. If you fail to do these things, you will suffer greatly. If all goes well, and sometimes it does, you will be pleasantly surprised. I'm going to search a reno thread you may find helpful and I'll post the link.

I always wondered about that law against 2 kitchens.

Check out the info in these. Primer's posts are quite helpful.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/24309-do-we-need-an-architect-to-manage-our-project
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/24033-design-architecture-professional-fees
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/8985-tips-on-successfully-renovating-an-nyc-apartment

Kyle, maid's rooms are often incorporated into kitchens, thereby changing the kitchen footprint

>>Kyle, maid's rooms are often incorporated into kitchens, thereby changing the kitchen footprint<<

Yes, but they have to be approved and often the co-op board will not allow any 'wet' items (sink, DW, ice-making fridge) in the 'dry' area that is the maid's room. In the case of maid's being combined with kitchen you'll generally see the an eating area in the space that once was the maid's--not sinks or DWs.

Also you will likely be required to lay a protective membrane under the kitchen floor to prevent any leaks to your downstairs neighbors.

Actually, we put sink with garbage disposal, dishwasher and refrigerator with icemaker in the maid's room we incorporated into the original kitchen. And not where the maid's bath is

Posted to wrong thread re: our making maid's into cooking part of kitchen and original kitchen becoming eat in area though with sink, dw, icemaker and compact fridge

ph41: I never said it can't be done. I said most coops will not approve wet over dry. If you want to take down a wall and put a table in the added space, that isn't wet over dry for a kitchen in the view of most pre-war coops. But adding water lines to the added area is an issue for most. Laying new liner under the floors adds a nice chunk of change to costs if it is required, too. Gotta tear up all the existing stuff and rebuilt. Not a fortune, but it is one of those things that gets the price to start really creeping upward for the job.

kylewest. i think u are totally correct. no way under 200. and if u are not doing custom millwork high end you might as well do ikea b/c nothing looks worst than bad millwork

I find kylewest is always right. I am surprised nobody asked about sq ft. It is a big difference if the apts are 800sq ft each or 2000 sq ft each.

The general rule of thumb would be $200.00-$300 for mid range. For a full gut which is what it sounds like. I would be more then happy to look at it for you and at least give you a quick budget.

Feel free to get in touch with me:

primerenovations@mac.com

www.primerenovationsnyc.com

Primer, I didn't raise the sq/footage because with the 3 bathrooms, I figured it was either a 2 or three or four bedroom combo and the difference wouldn't be huge regardless of which it were. But you are right. For a more accurate assessment, that is absolutely necessary info. The first estimates on the thread were just so woefully wrong and pointing the OP in a very bad direction, that I skipped over the sq/ft question in my furry of typing!

Right kyle, as in turning a 2 BR into a 3 BR is the same as in gut renovating a much larger apartment for the same $

Why has Kyle been grated out on this thread? WTF ?9

ph41, bedrooms do not run up the cost of a reno. Their cost is not a major budget item because there is no plumbing or major electrical or major construction that is typically needed. With many bedrooms, all that needs to be done is add a sconce or two and a couple of outlets, maybe add some moulding, redo floor and get a custom closet. The huge budget sucks are bathrooms and kitchens, replacing entire floors, reconfiguring space. That is what I meant. But I do agree, as I said that sq/footage is indeed necessary to get a good sense of the price. Still, we can assume certain things from the fact there are 3 baths in this post--you don't get three baths in an 800 sq/ft apt.

ph41 wrote: Why has Kyle been grated out on this thread? WTF ?9

What does that mean?

Kyle is right.

However additional room can add up depending on the scope, these could be extra costs:

Custom radiator cover with storage
Remove metal door frame at entry and closets, supply and install new custom doors on pivot hinges
Custom closet
Skim coat all walls and ceilings
Refinish/ install new wood flooring
Wall hung tv/cat 5

Plus more. It could add a lot to a project but most of the money does cone from bathrooms and kitchen but it really depends on scope of work.

Agreeing with Primer & Kyle, I will give you some real costs just to purchase some of the core guts I used in a new construction house last year, all of which were selected and vigorously shopped around for by me. None of this includes the cost of construction, installation, prep, plumbing, electrical, etc., labor of any kind (other then mine) or other basic necessities (i.e., lumber, moulding, doors, shower doors, lighting)

Kitchen
Custom cabinets & hardware (relatively small kitchen + butlers' pantry) - $45,000
Appliances (usual suspects + wine fridge + range hood) -- $26,000
Countertops, sink, faucet (soapstone + marble island top) -- $18,000
Tile -- $5,000

Baths (4)
Vanities + tops + sinks (one custom, two off the rack, one washstand) -- $9500
Mirrors & medicine cabinets (3 pivot mirors, two cabinets) -- $3000
Tile (floors, shower walls, curbs & ceilings (no outside walls)) -- $12,000
Toilets (4) and air tub (1) -- $5500
Fixtures (4 showers + handhelds, 1 floor mount tub filler, 5 fauctets (all Newport Brass or Sigma)) -- $9,000
Towel/Soap Racks, etc. -- $2500

Door handles/Locks (Emtek): $5000
Hardwood flooring (random width Walnut -- Carlyle): $12/ft

With the exception perhaps of some of the kitchen items, I would consider these items "mid to high end" and some cheaper because of personal tastes (I hate medicine cabinets and tiled walls). Just the raw materials for floors, a kitchen and a couple of baths easily could approach or exceed $150K, and you have not even started the renovation.

NYC,

I do not think people consider those prices to me mid to high, that is just high. The appliances at 26 are pretty high, countertops as well

Thanks for your comments.

Kylewest:
1. There would be four exit doors from this combination, so I'd assume that we could eliminate one or two with no problems, correct?
2. We may turn the kitchen into a bedroom or perhaps into a large closet off the MB. We're not planning any wet over dry construction. The existing kitchens and baths will be modified, but we won't be adding any wet space.
3. I assumed that the extra bedrooms wouldn't dramatically add to cost as well. Perhaps some ancillary items, but the majority of the cost should be from the wet areas.

Primer: I take your point about where we could run into additional costs depending on bedrooms and sq/ft. We are expecting to do five closets and may have to refinish radiator covers.

NYC_Sport: Those are good points of reference. I guess that a $75k kitchen may be more realistic for budgeting purposes. I think that we're aiming for something one step below your renovation.

Ph41: I think that incorporating the hallway into the apt. may be too much trouble/hassle for a few extra sq. feet, though it would make the foyer much nicer for us (and I think for the neighbors). We'll add a W/D to the kitchen, but it should still fit into the wet area. Venting may be a bit problematic since I don't want to block a window, but I think that a good architect can figure it out.

All, do you think that it's essential to get an architect involved before making an initial bid? Or should I wait until my bid is accepted to bring in someone?

Thanks!

I said with the exception of some kitchen items. The appliances are high because they included a $4K wine fridge and a $3K+ custom range hood. Even with a free diswasher and $1,000 rebate, a SZ fridge, Wolf range, and Miele speed oven were close to $20K. And the countertops/sink are high (which, as I recall, did include installation) primarily because of an overpriced farm sink/faucet and a 36 sq ft single slab of 3" marble on the island. But, then again, a different slab of Calcatta marble would have been $5K more, and different types of soapstone could have varied that price +/- 30%.

And we did say "mid to high." There are some other indulgences in here. I have a deep fixation with hardware, and the kitchen and bath cabinet pulls and ice box latches were quite expensive. The master has an exposed thermostatic shower valve and rain head that probably was close to $3K. The free standing tub has an exposed floor mounted "telephone faucet" that was probably $1500. But the tile, which we shopped all over for, ranged from $7 sq ft to $15 sq ft and overall probably was in the $10-11 sq ft range on average, and generally was 40-50% less than the same tile at one of "those tile stores" in Flatiron. And, we actually preferred the slightly knotty walnut flooring; clear grade would have been much more. So, some mid, some high = "mid to high."

jsw:
1. I have no idea about the doors--it would have to be cleared by buildings dep't and coop and without seeing the configuration or knowing why there were two doors in each unit to begin with, I couldn't hazard a guess.
2. You may find that "refinishing" radiator covers makes less sense than getting new ones when you compare the costs.
3. I would leave the hallway alone unless you have an extra $15,000 to spend (minimum) by the time you pay for the new proprietary lease the coop would have to issue, get the permits, clear the coop and deal with the construction. It will likely be the biggest headache of the job.
4. Be sure the building permits venting of w/d. Many will not allow it--and that includes out a window. You can ask the super this.
5. I would find an architect you like ASAP. Most architects are finding business a bit slow in the past 2 years and most would probably welcome a walk through with you since it would take little time and potentially land them a nice job. If you want the name of mine, just post your email. She was very fair, skilled, had the backing of a substantial firm, and provided the excruciatingly detailed construction drawings that served as the foundation of a successful gut reno.
6. Begin scoping finishes and appliances and mouldings and hardware etc NOW. The more details you have decided, the speedier lest costly the whole process will be later. If you lack a clear vision, it will impact the speed of the job and possibly up costs--you do not want to be leaving a lot of "to be determined" items in the construction drawings. So there is no reason you can't do your hunting and homework now. If this combo falls through, your work will still be useful when you find the next one.

nyc sport

I believe that when people refer to mid to high they are speaking of the complete project. It might be a high end project, usually everything is high-end. Same goes for mid, it generally is the whole apt not some parts high end and some parts medium.

jsw
we used a wonderful architect who stayed on top of everything, provided us with all discounts (for free) and was really reasonably priced. His name is alexandro perdomo. He is amazing and works on flat fee no matter what. He also handled expeditor and asbestos and really everything for us. We LOVE him.

He also calls back or emails back the same day

Bela,

Flat fees are great if they are reasonable. What did he do for you and how much was it?

My GC was also flat fee. It was only way I was willing to work. The drawings specified everything down to hinges, paint type/# of coats, SCU numbers of all finishes/mouldings/doors/fixtures. The only change orders involved me changing mind about # of light switches in one place, upgrade to part of electrical supply, and more complete demo of bathroom wall that was not plumb and was going to be a problem. Job finished within 3% of budget. If you have crystal clear vision, and exquisitely detailed architectural drawings that are made part of the GC's contract, then this arrangement can work fine.

He did all drawings and filings, looked at bids, met with contractors, answered all my stupid questions way more patiently than family memebers, called with all updates, set up expeditor and asbestos report. He held my hand through the whole process. We went back and forth with building architect I don't know how many times. He did the corrections req by DOB, stayed on top of coop board, met with building engineers, wrote letters and met with electrician to get an electrical upgrade permit. I don't have one complaint. He got permit for us to install 2 small washers vs one big one. I know it is a strange request but since they are for the kitchen we wanted undercounter onces and one would be too small. He got us a permission to unstall gas dryer to vent outside, to install stove hood to vent outside. All this was a lot of going back and forth with building architects. We got his name from neighboors who used him and they are seasoned renovators. He is awesome. His fee was under 10K.

jsw363, I was a newbie to renovations as well - All Renovation Construction helped me tremendously, they were patient, explained all the steps for me, gave me advice on selecting an Architect, explained the terminology, etc. They were extremely professional and just gave what I called "premium" customer service. This was important to me since I also had a large budget for a brownstone "gut" renovation and was extremely nervous with selecting a GC whom I could trust. After my project I explained how important the "beginners" process or hand holding was for me and they have since started a new service within their company called the All Renovation "Coaching" Service. All in all a great team to work with and I highly recommend them. You can find out more about them via their website at http://www.allrenovationllc.com

Best of luck,
Adam

Bela,

That sounds great. How big was your project? Was it a full gut? Bathrooms? Kitchens? Did he design as well?

Kitchen total gut, a lot of walls moved to redesign closets, bathrooms were drawn to be gutted but we don't have the money to do them now:(. He designed as well but I kind of knew what I wanted. The fee included designing but I did not use a lot of it. He did provide i think like 5 designs for us to choose from and at the end I just picked what I liked before that. He has great taste and he picked bathroom stuff but we never got to do it. In the kitchen it was a lot of work because of membrane and sound proofing and vents had to be done a certain way. He did so much work and was so patient about it and always apologized that the process takes so long.

almost forgot the apt is a classic 6 around 2000 sf prewar

Bela,
Could you kindly give me the name of your architect ?
Thanks .

Kyle,
Could you kindly give me the name of your architect and GC? About to embark on a combination of two un-renovated apartments and am concerned that our budget will not allow us to hire an architect with an eye for design. Thanks.

We used alexandro perdomo design. The owner is Alex Perdomo and he is awesome.