Price check

Rimnyc,

I can tell you that his prices are great. How a contractor can do a complete bathroom for 10k in Manhattan is very impressive. When you say material you are not talking about tiles and fixtures right?

The kitchen is a great price as well, that doesn't include a solid surface for a countertop right?

It is hard to say about some other aspects as you do not say how big the apartment is

Primer, thank you for your fast reply (as usual).

I suspect when you say "great" that you mean unrealistic. Our potential contractor is including granite counter tops, tiles, and fixtures for the aforementioned prices and has told us that he has two suppliers he uses for all the apartments he has done in our building. Are you thinking this pricing translates to lower quality? We've seen his work and--while we are renovation novices--thought it was lovely. He also had great references. The apartment is a 2 bed/2 bath.

Don't hold back.

So let me get this straight - the kitchen, two baths, the floor, and a bunch of other stuff - about 60K - including ALL parts and labor??

That seems REALLY inexpensive to me.

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. I'm really sorry, but this sounds too good to be true. Just be diligent in documenting everything you are expecting in great detail in writing. Unfortunately, I have found that contracts protect the contractor much more than they do the client.

The labor comes to about 40K, and the materials are about 20K. I had originally posted an early renovation question with these numbers, and the response was that the labor costs were realistic. Do you disagree? Is it just that the material costs are unrealistic? I've always thought that the materials should be about twice as much.

rimnyc,

It does seem very very inexpensively to me. I am not saying not to use him just be careful. I am currently working on a project in Sands Point. When I first looked at the project I bid on painting, Millwork and the floors. I actually thought I was too low on the floors but much to my surprise another contractor was 1/2 the price I was. Too make a long story short we just finished redoing the floors for them. I guess my point is the same as Nyrenewbie said.

If you are comfortable with them by all means use them. I would think about hiring an architect as a consultant, paid hourly, just to make sure everything is what it should be.

If you do have any questions I would be more then happy to help you

You can email me at primerenovations@mac.com

Why don't you check out the references in your building? Also check that the GC is licensed, and look at the DOB filing to see who pulled the plumbing permit & electrical permit. One possibility is that the GC has elec./plumber buddies who pull the permits, but don't do any of the actual work.

The contractor has done not only individual apartments in the building (and the references there praise his work), but he also does work for the building management itself. The super recommends him. I hear you that the number is low, but I'm looking online at the individual costs he mentions, e.g. tub, shower, and I'm not seeing a discrepancy. Is it that we're not choosing expensive fixtures? May I ask again if it's the labor or materials (or both) that gives folks pause?

i'm not a contractor, but I have done some renovations to my apt. i recently had a bathroom and a kitchen done. your quotes sound awfully low. sounds to me like your kitchen should be at least double and bathrooms tack on at least another 50% at minimum if not 100 %. Obviously depends on materals, but if you're talking granite countertops and mid level appliances fixtures, I'd ve very surprised if you can get the bathroom done for less than 15k, and the kitchen for less than 30-40k

Wow. A full kitchen reno for $18K seems extremely low to me as does the complete bath job for $11K. That said, if other tenants in the building give this contractor good marks and you like what you've seen then there may be sense in working with him.

Just remember cheap isn't always best--you generally do get what you pay for. Also be prepared to add around 20% to the quoted costs--that's the general rule of thumb when dealing with estimates.

It's both.

I have no idea what you are purchasing but I took a client to Nemo Tile and Af supply today, I do not have all the prices but here are some

Master bath

Zuma tub: $1,000.00
Hans Grohe shower body $1,200.00
Vanity: $2,500.00
Wall tile: $9.00 sq ft wall tile: $ 1,800.00
Floor tile: $6.00 sq ft $240.00
Robern Medicine cabinet $$800.00
Toilet. Wall hung, he went high here: $1,800.00. A normal toilet would cost $600.00

Total: $8,100.00 withvthe $600 toilet

Now cut that in half because you can get less expensive items $4,050.00

The cheapest licensed plumber will cost $3,000.00

That leaves about 3,000.00 for:

Light fixture
Faucet
Toilet paper holder
Towel bars

And of course the contractor. It does not make sense at all.

The kitchen if you are doing Ikea might be doable, maybe.

I hinted as to why the price might be low. Does the GC use a licensed plumber and electrician, or does he do the work "inhouse" (pretty sure that's illegal)? If he has a licensed plumber and elec. file the jobs with DOB, do they do the physical work or just pull permits for him?

What kind of insurance does the GC carry? It's plausible that the quotes are real (with the above constraints).

That's a good point Nyc10023

The one way to really tell is to see if the plumber and electrician provide there own insurances. Sometimes the gc will send a letter stating that the plumber and electrician are covered under their insurance which they are not.

Again I think the best bet is to reach out to an architect just to consult.

Great feedback above from Primer05, nyc10023, et.al.

The other side of the coin is that the "inside" guy can probably cut out some of the ancillary costs that inflate renovation expenses in Manhattan. The Super will probably cut him slack on storage, timing of deliveries, use of elevators, building access for workmen, permitted work hours, etc., etc. He knows where to park, and his buddy the porter will watch the truck for him; maybe he doesn't even need a truck, because his equipment is already on-site. His experience in the building allows him to estimate more accurately, so he can build a smaller margin into his estimates, and you can expect fewer change orders because he will probably find fewer adverse surprises behind the walls.

While it's a good idea to check the credentials and insurance of the plumber, electrician and any other skilled laborers, there may be entirely valid reasons for the huge difference between the inside guy's quote and market benchmarks. In our rental, the inside guy did a great refresh of our kitchen seven years ago, and the job cost us almost nothing because he salvaged beautiful old oak cabinets from an original-condition apartment that the landlord had decided to gut.

I appreciate all your feedback, and I'm going to follow up on your recommendations re: gathering information about the plumber and electrician licenses today. The GC gave us a copy of his license and insurance yesterday, which are also on site at the management office.

Of course I'm having a small panic attack now, which West81st is alleviating slightly. I do think the GC's an "inside" guy who's able to get around some of the expenses aforementioned because of his relationship with the building, but I also think that the fixtures you're quoting, Primer, are probably exquisite but well outside what we'd like to spend. We had told the contractor we're looking for fairly basic though reliable materials. We used HD as a barometer and found that the GC's estimates are seemingly accurate. And we're definitely building in at least a 20% overrun (and likely closer to 50%).

Will update later today for those of you kind enough to accompany me on this lunacy-inducing experience. Or I suppose we could just move in and not renovate at all. The 70s were a good era, after all.

rlm, the estimates are fine. in manhattan, the contractors are just insane with their labor costs and material costs. the shower body for $1200, vanity for $2500, wall tile for $9 psf, medicine cabinet for $800 and a toilet for $1800 are just nuts.

a high quality toilet with bidet from Toto is approx $1K from the place where i buy. in manhattan, you'll pay $2K.
nice tile can easily be had for $4-6 psf, the other $3 is just markup.
my millwork guy can build me a custom vanity for less then $1k and the granite will cost $500.
i'm still trying to see how a medicine cabinet can cost $800... does it have a hand that wipes your ass after you're done???

unless you're buying a $2MM apartment and want the super high end that will look super out of style in 5 years, you're going the right way.

One thing to add re: illegality of non-plumbers/elecs. doing work. I've been told (never verified myself) that it's okay for a GC to do plumbing & electrical work without a license, as long as the relevant permits have been pulled. The plumber & elec. who pull the permits are supposed to supervise the job. This cuts down on costs. I'm almost certain that this is the way the inhouse GC is proceeding.

rlmnyc - $25k for labor seems very, very low, regardless of materials. Why don't you speak to others in the building who used him to determine quality of work and the differential between quotes and actuals.

I get that you don't want to splurge and run up costs, but you should pick stuff that is reasonably mid-tier. Labor typically comprises the majority of the costs (60-75%), so when you start skimping on materials, you are being a bit penny wise pound foolish, especially if you plan to live there for awhile.

Also, when you factor the costs of the renovation, don't forget to include architect fees for drawings, fees to building architect, building administrative fees, city filing fees and expediter, cost of rent during the renovation etc.

ab_11218, my husband is your new best friend. Buster, quoted labor is 40K, not 20K. Proposed materials are 20K, though the contractor has told us we can go up from there if we want more expensive materials. I have no desire to skimp; I just want to know what we're in for before we decide to do all of the work. If the GC's quote for materials jumps from 20K to 40K for changing from low to mid-quality, that's not a problem. If it's truly 60K, we have to reconsider the full project.

I left a message for building management and spoke with our GC, who advised us that he uses the building's plumber and electrician, whose insurance and licenses are on file with management. Does that change any responses?

rlm,

the estimates seem fine to me (based on the work I have had done for my place over the years). the only Q I had was re kitchen materials of $10k, esp if that includes granite countertops. Does this include all new cabinets and appliances? That might make sense if a small kitchen and not fancy appliances (maybe).

AB,

Really? $9.00 sq ft for wall tile is crazy? I said the toilet was high, it is a Duravit wall hung with the carrier inside the wall. The other $3.00 is the markup? whos markup? What if I told you that the price of the tile is actual $14.00 sq ft but I went with my client to the tile pplace and gave him my discount. You think all tile is $4.00 and if its more its the markup? Would it surprise you that my client is getting whatever discount that I get.

Rim,

Did the contractor show you what finishes you are getting, kitchen cabinets, tiles, etc?

i would guess that by using the electrician and plumber that do work on the building, you're automatically saving the $1K+ on insurance alone. i really hope that the kitchen materials does not include appliances in that price, cause those will be some lovely Hotpoints you'll be putting in. my granite guy charges $60 psf for the stuff that people on this board are being charged $150 psf. he told me that when he goes to manhattan, they force him to get $500 worth of insurance just to bring the granite in. talk about a rip-off.

Ab,

Your facts are really are not even close to being correct

1. I do not know anyone in my 15 years of renovations who pay $150 sq ft for countertops.
2. Insurance does not work that way. I have insurance, when i get a new project I simply insure all parties. It does not cost more money.
either he has insurance or he doesnt. In some cases they might be charged with $50.00 for additionally insured.

rlmnyc, $40k still seems too low, and all of this guessing and sanity checking is a little bit useless in the end. Check his references.

Once that is done, make him sign up for what he quoted, and carefully spell out what is included and what is not (i.e. owner-provided items). The highest component and beta in any renovation is the labor cost. Once you have that nailed down, you can pretty easily control what you spend elsewhere.

Well, we've already determined from our own research that the granite (or quartz) is going to cost at least twice as much as the 2.5K our GC proposes (the kitchen is about 11 x 7), and we're going to spend somewhat more on appliances than the 2.2K he proposes. The kitchen will not be fancy--neither one of us does anything more creative than boiling water or microwaving popcorn.

Management just confirmed that the electrician and plumber the GC uses are licensed and insured, and that their paperwork has to be resubmitted with each project. The building manager also indicated that the apartment owners who have worked with him praise his work.

Buster, the GC said his labor costs will not be more than the quoted 40K, which he'll sign into the contract. The materials are up to us.

rlm: based on what you've posted (but please talk to apt owners who've used this GC), I would go for this GC.

primer, maybe that's why some of your cost are so high. the contractors that i've spoken to all pay $300-600 on top of their umbrella coverage when they do a project in a coop/condo. it's possible that their umbrella coverage costs less to begin with.

as far as granite. home depot was charging $100 psf + tax + $500 delivery/installation for the same granite that i paid $55 psf that included tax, delivery and installation. given that you're in manhattan, all in $150 psf is "reasonable"

4.8k for painting a 2br/2bath?
I just had mine done for $1000 including all cost. Though, plain basic colors from Benjamin Moore, it looks exceptional. He coated 2-3 times, re-did baseboards, etc.

$10k in materials for an 11x7 kitchen sounds awfully inexpensive. If he's budgeting $2.5k for countertops, that leaves $7.5k for cabinets & hardware, backsplash, flooring, sink/faucet, fridge, range, microwave and dishwasher? I guess that's possible for very low end - but just remember that generally speaking you want to keep fixture quality in line with the rest of the building, otherwise when you go to sell everyone will just budget in a reno to their prices. of course if you reasonably expect to live there a very long time, or its a condo and your exit strategy is to rent it out, it doesn't matter.

4k for Fridge, range, microwave, dishwasher, sink, backsplash for pretty decent setup (LG LCD/Water refrig, etc)

2.5k for countertop

leaves 3.5k for cabinet, hardware, flooring. Seems reasonable to me.

One additional note about NOT using the inside guy: all of the advantages the inside guy has won't just turn neutral if you decide to go with another GC. Those same elements could become serious headaches. If the inside guy is tight with the staff (and he probably is), they can make life difficult for a competitor in subtle and unsubtle ways that will inflate your costs and delay completion. They can ensure that, even if you think your contractor did a great job under the circumstances, your advice to the next renovating neighbor will be, "Just use Joe - otherwise, everything is a battle, and it's not worth it."

So I just spoke with the building super, who said he loves the GC, has worked with him for years, and feels he does wonderful work. He acknowledged that the GC's costs are lower than other GCs, but attributed it to the smooth process of working within the building (a la West 81st's comment). I'm trying to cover all my bases, but is it possible this GC might actually work out well?

rlmnyc - no way is this possible.

I would say go for it. He's worked in the building, and you can see his work and speak with his clients. He's obviously cleared by the building. Don't overthink it. We went with someone whose quotes came in lower than everyone else's. His referrals checked out, we saw and liked his previous work, and everything went pretty well. We ended up with work we like, and saved 10s of thousands over the other guys.

Is this apt in Manhattan? Can you tell us what neighborhood or how much you paid? I think this is relevant to determining how realistic the quote is.

Thanks, printer. Lkgsoh, this is Park West Village on the UWS, 2 bd/2 bath. I know some of you hate, hate, hate the complex, but there it is.

If you make changes after the work has begun, you can expect to pay handsomely for it. Also if there are surprises in the walls/ electrical/ plumbing work, it can get expensive very quickly. Even though it seems hard to pay attention to all the little details of a reno, if you do your homework first and make sure that all of the details you expect to be included are included you will save yourself a serious headache later.

We redid our kitchen ourselves with granite counters, wood cabinets, sink and new appliances including dishwasher and jumbo fridge. All the labor was us, no contractors, etc. Only the granite was installed by the granite guy out of long island and I paid the guy from the appliance store to install the over the range microwave ($75).

Total costs came to about $9K. Kitchen is 7 feet long, galley style, so 2 rows of cabinets (42" top cabinets).

Check that materials, this is where is can get hinky. Cheap thermofoil cabinets are a nightmare. If you want good ones, I used the Costco cabinet company.

AB,

Wrong again. My costs are so "expensive" because I use the best people. The "contractors you speak to? why dont they have the umbrella to begin with? Smart contractors do not buy their solid surfaces at Home Depot.

Thank you to everyone who responded to my post. I really appreciate all the feedback and will take your suggestions under advisement.

can you please give me your contractors email? Thanks.

i would love your contractor's email as well. thx.

I just looked at Park West Village website which shows pictures of newly-renovated kitchens and baths. I assume this (or at least some of it) is the guy's work. I take it all back. It looks just like the price you were quoted.

ab, primer is absolutely correct. Insurance for contractors doesn't work the way you've described. No insurance company quotes a policy by project.

For rlmnyc, contractors quotes are something of an art as opposed to a science from the perspective that for identical scope of work there can be a huge range for bids. There are plenty of reasons for this, but the point is that its a relative assessment as a low bidder can do better work than a high bidder (price and quality are all too often not correlated). You've seen the contractor's work and spoken with people who have actually used him. There is no better information than what you already have. I'd go with him.

I just went on the website as well, if that is what you are going for the price does seem to be right, maybe even a little high.

Lkgsoh/Primer05: I don't think it's possible to judge workmanship from those pictures. What's clear is that the kitchens and baths shown are very basic, which seems fine considering the context. As rlmnyc mentioned, upgrading materials, fixtures and finishes is an option. If we weren't talking about PWV, I'd almost say upgrades are mandatory. Those are not looks you would pick for the Beresford. In rlmnyc's particular complex, however, basic might be the way to go.

West 81st,

Who said anything about workmanship? The bathroom is a very easy install, very basic ceramic tile. It costs less money to install as it is very easy. All the finishes are inexpensive as well so it is possible and probable for the money they are talking about.

Primer05: Thanks for clarifying. My post was directed more toward Lkgsoh, who seemed to be denigrating "the guy's work".

Your reply brings up an interesting point, though. We tend to assume that labor costs for demo/reno of a given space are fairly constant, so it's stupid to skimp on finishes. As you note, though, nicer stuff also tends to be more difficult/expensive to install properly.

no W81. primer spends most of the day on streeteasy and needs to get paid for doing nothing. this is the reason why he will not take a job like this. unless you're installing small glass tile or the like, installing tile is more or less the same. same goes for a kitchen. it is often a little more difficult to install a crappy kitchen then a nice one. everyone just thinks that expensive materials are expensive to install.

ab,

you make me laugh, thank you. Do you know what projects I take on or are you guessing? I do not put every project I do on my website

ab, I will offer you the same thing that I have offered other that say I do nothing all day but this.You are welcome to come spend the day seeing what I do on a daily basis. Name the day and time, 7 am if you want the full experience.

We can do tomorrow, this is the schedule:

7am: Leave to get to Sands Point at 8:00.
9am: Roselyn, Meeting with a 2nd time client who hit hard times and needed our help for a small renovation
11:00 East 22nd street, finish a project for someone I met on SE
1:00: East 22nd: Yet another project that the GC started and did not finish, just left not fired
2:00: Drive to South Hampton for the Designers Show house that we are participating in
4:00 Met my client at Nemo to pick out tiles
6:00 Home.

Where should I pick you up?

Ps. Expensive materials are tougher to install, hand cut tiles are much harder then machine cut tiles just for example

ab: I will send you an extra-large coffee and breakfast of your choice. Remember: 7AM.
Where should I send it?

You need to eat it in the car, as Primer is up WAAAAY before then, and has had his breakfast.
Never mind lunch-on-the-run.

Sorry the 1:00 is east 52nd street.

O.K., ab.
When Primer goes up to the apartment at 1:00, you can take a break and stay in the car.
I'll swing by and throw in lunch.
Anything you want.

ab: I'm still waiting for your breakfast and lunch order.
It's on me.
Anything you want.

ab? Where did you go, man?

primer: you've always seemed like a pretty reasonable guy.

trashing some else's work based on some shitty photos on the web is not reasonable.

now you're trying way too hard to justify yourself.

how about this?

you are a high end guy who does high end work.

no need to trash others who may not be able to afford high end work and the people who take care of their need.

Interesting,

I was thinking the complete opposite. Icdo hi-end work as well as medium end work. Where does it say I am trashing anyone? I was talking about the finishes not anyone's work.

primer, take good advice from columbiacounty. It takes at least 2 hours to get to columbiacounty from NYC, and for good reason.

ab: WHERE DID YOU GO?

ab: where are you?
Gone baby, gone.

Truth

Trolling again?