London Terrace Towers

P.S. I meant to say "Now that I have the money," which certainly changes the meaning of my questions. Again, pardon the typos.

Most coops have an 80%-carpet rule. The rule isn't enforced unless the downstairs neighbor complains about you stomping around. Even then there isn't too much they can really do, but the usual amount of carpeting here and there typically is enough. Is there a reason you are so concerned about this particular rule? It's kind of an usual one to be focusing on.

Hi Riccardo,

I'm a broker, and one thing I think it's helpful to think about when you're buying is architecture.

When London Terrace was built (1929-1930) construction materials and expectations were different. Generally the buildings of that era have thick layers of material, and apartment-to-apartment sound transmission is minimal. So the number of complaints about an 80% carpet rule are probably going to be lower than in, say, a 1980s building.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

We looked seriously in LTT a few years ago. Would've been at the top of our list had we been willing to give up our dream of outdoor space (or if one of the few apartments with an actual terrace came on the market).

Random thoughts:

Floor plans are quite gracious overall. Kitchens are very small, though, unless they've been modified. Most units have good closet space.

Interior-facing units are quiet, but can be very dark. Exterior-facing units get great light and can have some great views, but will get street noise.

Maintenance is on the high side, even for a full-service building. Maintenance is a bit lower on the 10th Ave side, even though it's arguable more attractive now, because 10th Ave was still dicey at the time of initial conversion.

Electric is not separately metered. There are some who abuse that. (I've heard a/c's going in the midst of winter.)

Prices in 465/470 are up a lot over 2009-10 because of the High Line views.

I think every building's proprietary lease has the 80% carpet rule. I agree mostly with Ali R. about prewar construction being generally better, but I lived in a prewar where our upstairs neighbors had no carpet, wore high heels around the house, and had a baby who was learning to walk. We had no peace while they were awake.

Thank you all for your comments. I currently live in San Francisco and am on the Board of Directors. At our building, we take "peaceful enjoyment of premises" very seriously. I'm keeping my SF pad and am buying in New York because I love the tneater and you fabulous New Yorkers and your incredible energy and the fact that EVERYONE seems to be involved in creative activities. That being said, when I come home from a night at the theater and the fun bars, I want to come home to a quiet apartment. I want an alcove studio with a beautiful view on a high floor. London Terrace seems to have it all -- but they all have hard floors which means that unless you are on the top floor, there is going to be footsteps and stomping, which would drive me insane. I appreciate the realtor's comments that pre-war buildings are more quiet.

Is Tudor City a good place -- it's prewar and I'm wondering if it's quiet. But it's on the far east side, which doesn't seem very hip and is not good for public transportation. Am I right?

I think you have an exaggerated idea of what the noise is like in old buildings. First, virtually all apartments are hardwood floors in NYC. They are built that way. Carpeting entire rooms has not been in fashion for decades and I don't think I've ever even seen a NYC building where units aren't sold with hardwood floors. I assure you, older construction buildings are quieter as others said--even buildings into the 1950s and 60s and 70s can be very quiet. It gets dicier as you move into the modern era of construction although many new buildings are fine--you just have to look into it more. You do not have to be in the penthouse for quiet. Footsteps are unlikely to be an issue in most of the older places. I live in a 1950 building, for example, and cannot hear anything from neighbors.

The concern you voice is more often heard from people moving into brand new construction.

London Terrace is an interesting building. I’ve looked pretty hard at a couple of apartments there with outdoor space and river views, but ultimately decided to stay put. I do have a thesis that units in these buildings will eventually appreciate to prime pre-war West Village prices.

Currently, the price per square foot seems lower at LTT than some of the other Far West Chelsea buildings (and not just the new “starchitecture” highrises). Part of this is due to the notably higher maintenance (large staff, co-op gets no rental income from the retail), but as tax abatements expire on the newer buildings, this gap should be at least partially bridged. The other issue is that LTT is a co-op in a land of condos, although I’ve heard the rules are a little more relaxed for issues like renting out the apartment.

Far West Chelsea has changed so dramatically over the past 10-15 years, and the Highline caps a long gentrification started by art galleries, restaurants, townhouse renovations, and new developments. Brodsky is developing all around the seminary and had a lot of success with both Chelsea Enclave and the tenements they just converted. West 23rd used to be the Northern barrier, but the neighborhood is slowly stretching north up to Hudson Yards with a lot of new developments in the works. And amongst all of this, London Terrace is the only real prime pre-war co-op.

Ricardo65, London Terrace Towers is on the far WEST SIDE, a very hip area with a high concentration of art galleries, restaurants, bars, hip shops and clubs. You are also near Billy's Bakery if you ever want to indulge in the best "bad for you" treats available.

As for transportation, it is a one or two long avenue block (depending on which side of the building you are one) to the C/E trains at 8th Avenue and 23rd Streets. Not great but not as bad as the Upper East Side where one can walk four avenue blocks to one super crowded line. The M23 and M11 buses also stop at your corner.

I am not a owner, broker or resident of London Terrace, but I did want to be sure you were armed with the correct information.

Tudor City is very quiet. However realize that when it was built, there was industry down by the river, so despite its location by the water, it faces inward.

I think Chelsea is a better choice for someone relocating, but hey, I'm biased since I've lived there.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

" I'm keeping my SF pad and am buying in New York "

That makes two of us :)

I'm really impressed by all the good information you are giving me: typical New Yorkers. Now, while we are on the subject, I was told that London Terrace is, in fact, a Condop. What does this mean? Does it mean I wlll not have to be board approved. This terrifies me. I'm been told that coop boards in New York don't like us Californians. One reason I've heard is that some Californians move to New York, then run home because they didn't realize that there would be a true culture shock. I LOVE New York and am quite sure that within a year of living in NYC, I'll sell my other place and maybe buy a one bedroom, or an alcove studio with a lovely terrace. My God, sipping a Manhattan while looking at the Empire State Building as the sun sets, I can't imagine anything more fabulous. Again, what's a condop.............. Thanks everyone

>My God, sipping a Manhattan while looking at the Empire State Building as the sun sets,

Yeah, that's what we do all day, every da.

Except that you sip a martini, not a Manhattan. And the sun sets in the west, not over the Empire State Building. We also don't actually have King Kong.

Riccardo: I think using a broker for any transaction would be a good idea for you. You seem very enthusiastic, but your knowledge of NYC and NYC RE may be limited as any outsider's would be. Frankly, it concerns me that you could be eaten alive in a NYC RE transaction. The learning curve is steep here and doing it on your own is a lot to take on needlessly since a RE broker is free. Just make sure you find one highly recommended by a trusted friend or contact.

A condop means nothing. It is a coop. London Terrace is a coop. 100%. I don't know its details, but like many buildings in Manh., its structured as a condominium with the retail space being one condo, a garage (if it exists) being another condo, and the apartments you can buy being a third condo. I imagine the rental apartments are a fourth condo at London Terr. The apartments for purchase, collectively a single condominium unit, are structured and incorporated as a coop. Same basic coop rules and a non-condop building. Nothing changes. The only real difference is that certain maintenance and upkeep expenses may be shared by a pre-set formula among all condominiums.

As for being a Californian, NYC coops will not care for the most part what state you are from. They will care that you do not intend to make the NYC apartment your primary residence. You want a pied a terre. Many coops do not permit that--they attempt to keep the coop 70% occuppied with primary residence owners. It helps strengthen their position with lenders and makes for fewer headaches among shareholders. On the other hand, some coops permit pied a terres (second residences). You'll need to focus on those. They'll also require a debt to income ratio of less than 25% in most cases. An agent could help you figure all this out. Condos, of course, do not have these same restrictions but expect to pay about a 20% premium for a condo over a coop.

I live in London Terrace. It is a very well run building and fairly quiet, especially on higher floors. The coop board will do due diligence with respect to your financials, that's really the most important part of the process I think. If I am not mistaken, you do not need board package approval if you buy a sponsor unit. Some are occasionally still available. The roofdeck and pool are amazing amenities, and yes the maintenance is steep. Neighborhood just keeps getting better. Plenty to do.

KW (an old hand on these boards) has it exactly right: The four buildings at 405/465 West 23rd Street and 410/470 West 24th Street are a condominium, formally known as "London Terrace Towers Condominium." Anything you would see on the Web as an apartment for sale is part of the residential unit, so you would be buying stock in "London Terrace Towers Owners." That entity owns several hundred apartments, from the third floor to the penthouse, in the four buildings. (We don't have TIC here in NY the way you guys do in SF; co-op and condo are pretty much the two choices).

As a purchaser, you would want to read the financials of the co-op together with the condominium, because even if you're buying a sponsor unit and don't have to go through the board process, you want to know what your stock is worth. Think of the due diligence as flowing in both directions: the co-op board wants an application to do due diligence on you, and you want to read the condo-p financials to do due diligence on it.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Riccardo: It's 80% floor covering for high traffic apt. areas. Hallways,bedrooms and living room.
Most people have area rugs. The areas surrounding the rugs are usually filled with furniture.

You can still hear heavy footfalls on the non-covered areas. The closets are not usually included and I always carpet inside my closets because when something falls to the floor (a piece of luggage, a boot, a belt) it can cause noise that can be heard below.

Mostly it's the residents that make noise with loud arguing, music/instrument playing, kids playing/crying/ screaming.
Just like in San Francisco.

You will be sipping at sunset. Going out to the theater and bars.
By the time you get home to bed you will be nice and toasty.

Reading your situation again, I'm wondering if you might be better off renting in London Terrace Gardens until you decide if New York is going to be a full-time thing. If you buy a studio, then decide you want to sell your S.F. place and trade for a one bedroom, as you think you might, you are going to incur enormous transactional costs.

Especially given that there is a directly comparable, near identical rental option that shares all of the key amenities, you may want to consider it. The only potential downside is that I believe all of the studios in the Gardens face the street. The 24th St. side won't be too noisy, but you'll have northern v. southern light.

Thank you all, each and every one of you, for this important information. I love the layout of the studios, especially the "f" line in 410 west 24th. Beautiful views and 7 windows, all in a studio. That is EXACTLY what I want. If I could find one on a high floor, I would be there, "forever."

Riccardo: You may hear about something becoming available while you are living in the building. O It's not unusual for people to move within the same building for a higher floor, view, larger apt. You may want a one-bedroom.

Welcome to N.Y.C. Riccardo.

I saw some units there, and here is my opinion.

In a nutshell, if you appreciate newer constructions and modern features/amenities, you may have aversive reactions to this place. By contrast, if you appreciate interesting pre-war details and don't mind occasional encounters with ...., then, the apartments there seem nice and generally well priced.

I didn't buy because I fall under the former category. In addition, I didn't like the walk from 8th Avenue to the bldg. It felt as though I were in Queens...with those huge institutional-looking bldgs.

Dear ClintonBuyer: In fact, I love pre-war, art-deco buildings. Mine in SF was built in 1929, formerly an apartment hotel. Gorgeous views of the ocean and bay, but strangely enough, for a building built in that era, the floors and walls are very thin. I am fortunate to have very quiet neighbors, but if one were to sell, it would be a problem. I'm on the Board, and most coomplaints deal with noise. What exactly did you mean by "occasional encounters with ____,"??????? Those 4-letters could be a lot of nasty things........

Riccardo, I don't know the architectural history of San Francisco, but in NY '29-'30 was a building boom of enormous magnitude (one of the prettiest NYC Deco buildings was built in *six months*) and so there weren't enough "good" contractors and "proven" materials to go around. Most prewars here are fortresses, but some have specific problems due to the fact that they were slapped up too fast, others due to getting the short end of the stick in the race for materials ... I wonder if that's what happened to your building in SF?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Dear front porch: The explanation given to me is that back in the '20s, there were different classifications given to hotels than to strictly residential structures. Hotels were Class B, and residential buildings were Class A. I know that our floors are poured concrete and only 5", whereas residential structures required 8" slabs. Also, in those days, there weren't boom boxes, surround-sound televisions, and the like. The only things they had were radios. Perhaps that is the explanation, although when I stay in a hotel, I expect it to be quiet.

Are you a real estate agent? If so, perhaps you could help me with my search. I'm coming the first two weeks in May to scope things out. How can I contact you, if you might be interested in helping me.

Riccardo, Ali Rogers aka front_porch is indeed a real estate agent & you'll be in good hands with Ali. She's with DG Neary Realty in lower Manhattan; just google.

Just don't steal her time.

thanx drdrd.

Riccardo, I am indeed a real estate agent, and I work for a broker who is strongly identified with Chelsea.

You might enjoy a column from this week's Village Voice, which quotes him: http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-04-18/columns/housing-in-new-york-has-never-been-better-Michael-Musto/1/

I would love to talk with you. Please email me at ali [at] dgneary [dot} com -- and if you would, put "streeteasy" in the subject line so I can find it.

a