Morningside/Harlem or Bed-Stuy/Crown Heights?

Crown Heights is an easy commute if you work on the East side of Midtown (4-5 run express in Brooklyn) and it changing very quickly. Parts still have a sketchy feel but there a lot of great new restaurants and places on Franklin Avenue and many families with young children are moving in. Neighborhood school still is not great, if you are going to be there with school age kids you would want to think private, parochial or charter.

(Full disclosure -- I've lived as far up as Washington Heights and in Brooklyn, Williamsburg and Brooklyn Heights.)

Housing is not an *investment* -- it's a place to live and a convenient way to *not* burn your money entirely away in rent.

That said, consider which neighborhood you really love. Frankly, no one should buy any home in a neighborhood they don't absolutely love; it's where you will plant your life, possibly permanently (sure, sure, people say "5 to 7 years", but it's amazing how quickly those years turn into decades). If you don't absolutely love either neighborhood, *rent* someplace extremely affordable and save your money until you CAN buy in the neighborhood that you love.

If you really do love both of these neighborhoods, consider then the commute -- not just to work, but to school (especially to school!) and your social life. If you both work in Midtown, UWS/Harlem is MUCH more convenient than pretty much anywhere in Brooklyn (except maybe Brooklyn Heights). Such that you could theoretically do a quick run to and from the apartment back to Midtown/Downtown for dress changes, errands, etc. In Bed-Stuy/Crown Heights, it's a schlep; you leave once in the morning and don't come back until you're back for the night.

Consider also *schools*. Public or private? If public, your chance of getting into at least a halfway decent zoned school is worlds better in UWS/Harlem than Bed-Stuy/Crown Heights. And frankly, if private, you're most likely looking at Manhattan schools, in which case the commute would be much shorter for you and the kids.

Good luck!

If you are asking which area will appreciate more, it seems a no-brainer that the on-the-island places - Harlem, East Harlem, WH - will appreciate faster than the off-the-island places.

Also, per the stats, crime is relatively worse in Crown Heights than Harlem, though both are much safer than most large American cities. But WH is safer still. As for the East/West commute thing - East Harlem (or the eastern edge of Central Harlem btw 5th-6th) are faster to mid-town east than anywhere in Brooklyn. But if you commute to downtown Manhattan, I cannot say. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Indeed, whether you work Midtown East vs. Midtown West does make a big difference. 5th Avenue corridor, maybe split the difference. But if you're working on 2nd Avenue, the east-west schlep to get to the west side trains gets really old really fast.

I am raising a young family on the FDB corridor. Been here over 5 years and love it. We rent and have an investment property on FDB and are in the process of buying again. IMO its a great area and is working out for us. I commute to LIC and it takes 30 mins. Wife works downtown. Lots of subways and parks and food and bars!

As a recent transplant to Morningside Heights (from a bit lower on the UWS) I'd vote to live here, hands down. The commute downtown is simple and quick, and even trekking over to the east side isn't terribly painful. There is a wonderful neighborhood feel up here, and if you're in the Columbia area, there's the typical vibrancy that comes with being near a major university. Having lived for years in the Village, then on the UWS and now here, I see the merits of each area but have to say I'm really loving Morningside Heights.

A real plus is being near Riverside Park. It's a wonderful place to hang out and play (there are many lovely playgrounds for kids up and down the Drive). And then, of course, you get to see the river, which is always beautiful. I far prefer Riverside Park to Central Park.

There are also great private schools in this area (if you are going that route). I am not as familiar with the public schools, though.

Harlem is an easy choice. Great for kids, great transportation. Try to move to zone 3 for schools.

You should consider Hamilton Heights in Harlem. Columbia's expanded campus opens soon and prices in the neighborhood are cheap (for now). I think that dollar for dollar HH is a better buy right now than anything south of 125th.

harlem and the nearby area is not good for kids, tons of drug dealers stabding on streets day and night.

and the kids are not diversified

I don't have kids but I'd say Brooklyn over Harlem. Harlem seems really far away to get to Brooklyn where a lot of cultural things are going on these days, as is downtown manhattan. BK to downtown manhattan is a pretty quick trip. There are also lots and lots and lots of young , educationally minded families moving to Bed Stuy (Stuyvesant hts and to the west near clinton hill) and Crown Heights (north of easternparkway) . Not there aren't lots of families in Harlem as well. I think you can also get more for your money in BS/CH, (as in houses, etc) though that is changing very rapidly as prices rise. Harlem is still more expensive though.

Also, it's not cheap but Greenpoint has very good schools. You also might want to look into Windsor Terrace. Still value to be had there, lots of families and near Prospect Park and schools are supposed to be good.

My guess is that the neighborhood immediately along and to the east of Morningside Park (technically not Morningside Heights which is above the park, but the boundaries are being expanded to include these blocks) above 110 and south of 125 is a very good bet.

That area is already very expensive, but am sure will continue to appreciate with Columbis'a presence/expansion

Country Boys!

"the neighborhood immediately along and to the east of Morningside Park"

About everything you need to know about that area can found in these 33 short pages: http://books.google.com/books?id=iwzTVUMl6i4C&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=haint+of+harlem&source=bl&ots=uZNRviEFVn&sig=XoHK18t55gO8SJ31FeU-0Fke6lM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nZeBUeTrHO_F4AOU74HwCQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ

The FDB corridor (110th to 125th between 7th and the park) is not expensive in a relative sense-- high-end condos are running about $800psf right now, whereas in the next cheapest (lower) part of manhattan, it's more like $1,200psf. I think that means there's plenty more room for appreciation.

Alanhart that's a great piece. You have to admire his entrepreneurship. Actually I was born in New York almost 50 years ago, although I can't say that Morningside Park was my playground. I do remember however prostitutes working West End Avenue, my mom being aggressively pan-handled in a weedy, litter-strewn Bryant Park, etc. etc. Today perhaps a little less character, certainly fewer characters, but good that people not making millions want to stay here and are willing to venture a little beyond comfortable boundaries within the city instead of heading for the 'burbs.

@200 rector: I will pick harlem over bed-stuy/crown heights. It is a much easier commute to mid town, and if you have a job that requires you to be at work (rain/shine/hurricane) you want to live in the city.

bloomingdale, perhaps we knew each other as youngsters. My mother taught me to count by our tallying up the number of prostitutes we passed on each of our summer evening strolls to Baskin-Robbins on Broadway, I think maybe 88th or 89th St.

I wasn't aware of West End Ave. trade, but there was a lovely SRO directly across from the Thalia that catered exclusively to the very finest black trannies (trafficking bodily or otherwise, I'm not sure. I'm very naive).

Thanks Alan for posting that link. Since I didn't live in Harlem at the time, or now, I can't pass judgement on whether that New York was a better place than the mallifed, for the uber-wealthy and tourists only, New York of today in that section of the city. I do know it was a hell of a lot better downtown...even if we can now take the subway safely at 10pm instead of ignoring maternal admonishments to take a cab and taking the train, however dangerous, anyway.

I researched Harlem for 4 years, and ultimately chose Bed-Stuy. Same beautiful brownstones, cheaper, more inventory, and in Brooklyn, which is a more fun place for me to live. The A train ride is 13 min to Manhattan. Safety and amenities depend very much on location, there are good and bad sections in both.

DO the houses in Bed-stuy have driveways, or is there only street parking?

Very few houses with parking. Brownstones seldom have. We park on the streets, and there are parking lots as well.

Also love Bed Stuy. The A train from the Nostrand Station to the Fulton Station is 15 minutes and to Time Square is approximately 20 minutes. Agree with beautiful brownstones and the area is gentrifying quickly; prices however, have increased considerably in the past 6 months.

Fulton to Times Square in 5 mins??? Nope, that's 10+ minutes. But 125th St to Columbus Circle in 6 minutes, and to Times Square in 8? Yes.

Hopstop shows Nostrand to 42nd during the day as 35 mins. That seems about right. That same 35 mins on the train from 125th St will get you all the way down to Grand on the D and will get you most of the way to High Street on the A.

Gosh, Morningside Heights hands down.

If you are near an express stop, Harlem, HH, or even WH gets you to mid-town faster than any train can from Brooklyn, for sure. Check hop stop, Google maps, whatever. If you work DOWNTOWN, yes, BK can be a shorter commute. But I used to live in Fidi, and FROM THERE, already in Manhattan (!!!) it took me 30 minutes door to door to get to work (mid-town East). Same exact time it took me from Central Harlem, or 5 minutes longer than it does from East Harlem now.

There is no possible way, therefore, that even Brooklyn Heights or Dumbo, let alone BedStuy or CH, could be faster to mid-town.

But Brooklyn is an international brand. Is Harlem? No, I didn't think so.

>> But Brooklyn is an international brand. Is Harlem? No, I didn't think so.

Tell that to the legions of European tourists who flood Harlem every weekend ...

In all seriousness, I hear the point, Brooklyn has become an international symbol of cool. I think Harlem also has a brand name - good and bad, but so did "brooklyn" historically - which some of the cool new places are starting to tap.

If I didn't have kids, I would pick BedStuy because of the hipster factor. With kids - Harlem wins out (District 3 Zoning for South harlem, shorter commute unless you work in FiDi).

Yeah, poverty tourism -- not the same

Nostrand Station to Grand Central Station in 28 minutes.

"Yeah, poverty tourism -- not the same"

This is why Alan is greyed out even when I am not logged in. I.e. by default. Total idiocy. TOP asked about POOR areas of BK versus harlem. Crown Heights and Bed-Stuy, while they have parts that are up and coming, are demographically the same if not poorer than CH below 125th, HH, WH, or the very EH below 106th. Taken as a whole, the income and crime rate sorts of things Alan love to complain about are worse in the poorest parts of BK than they are in Upper Manhattan.

This is NOT a debate about BH or Dumbo versus Harlem. Its CH/B-S versus Harlem.

Back to grey.

>This is why Alan is greyed out even when I am not logged in. I.e. by default. Total idiocy.

I haven't noticed a 1:1 correlation between posting color and idiocy. I look more at the content to determine.

>>> "yeah, poverty tourism - not the same"

If it is seeing poverty these tourists are after, then why wouldn't they be touring East New York and Brownsville? Or within harlem, why are most of the tourists within the better areas - Mt. Morris park, FDB, Convent Avenue - instead of East Harlem or near Bradhurst. Harlem absolutely is an international brand name - some good (architecture, jazz, harlem renaissance) and some bad (drugs, crime).

I am not a mindless Harlem cheerleader. Bed Stuy not only has the Brooklyn "brand" going for it, it also cheaper: your money will get you farther. But there is a reason Brooklyn in general cheaper (and though it has gotten more expensive, it is still cheaper when you compare prime Brooklyn to prime manhattan): it is, for most people, less convenient: to work and in general (since subways are designed to get people from Brooklyn to manhattan, not within Brooklyn). And to families where both parents work, this is a big deal. So much of the reason families have stayed in Manhattan is to shorten their commutes and for convenience. Within prime brooklyn and prime manhattan, there is also a reason Harlem and bed stuy are cheaper: schools, slightly higher crime, perception, somewhat less amenities, although this is changing for both (and driving prices up in both).

For liveability, it comes down to the importance of convenience - if this is less important, bed Stuy wins - your money goes farther and you aren't too far from hip parts of Brooklyn. If you both work and have kids, harlem gets you a shorter commute and more school options if you are in district 3 (not to mention private options).

For investment - they both seem to be about 1/3 cheaper than prime manhattan or Brooklyn (for renovated inventory, not counting trophy properties). You have to decide how much more this gap shrinks, if it will at all, and I think Harlem will always have some gap given some of the structural poverty there (same true of LES). With Bed Stuy, maybe it gets closer to prime Brooklyn because it is convenient relative to other parts of prime Brooklyn - the question is how much structural poverty is there? Then there is the question of how much more prime Brooklyn appreciates relative to manhattan ...

Personally I think SoHa (South Harlem) is going to be a good investment. Both Chelsea and LES has structural poverty but look where the prices are these days. I think Bed-Stuy is still a few years behind SoHa but agree that it is cheaper comparaticely.

I live in Soruh Harlem but less sure of upside at these price levels. And I was a big cheerleader back in 2009 when people were saying the excess inventory would crater the market - I said in the short term this would be true, but over the medium term it would bring the much needed density of people who can support decent restaurants, bars, and stores. I bought at 400 SPF in 2010 (and spent another 150 Psf renovating) my brownstone. There are still more brownstones to be bought and renovated (though little inventory) - but these don't give you the density. Now, there aren't many free market apartments remaining in south harlem. Since you can now get 800 Psf I am sure more developers are looking for places to develop. I see a few vacant lots left, and ACP has maybe a few buildings that could be converted (many are section 8 and the like) but it is incremental. The big catalysts for another price movement will be 1) the redevelopment of 125th street, which does appear to be finally happening and 2) if they ever can infill the MLK projects the way they are talking about doing in other parts of the city. I do think 2) will happen eventually, but that could be 20 years. As for 1), I wish there were more apartments ...

And why if Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights have the "Booklyn Brand Name" would Harlem not have the "Manhattan Brand name?" Just silliness from Alan as usual. Obviously I think property values will go up faster in all three areas than they will in NYC as a whole, all else equal, over the next 10-20 years. As those of you who watch Mad Men know, Peggy was talked into buying in the west 80s, which was scary in those days.

I think I understand what Alan says. When I was going to buy in Harlem foreigners living abroad said: "Interesting". When I tell them I am going to live in Brooklyn they say "that's so cool!". I think they picture a young urban scene with a feeling of neighborhood and community that is hard to find any more in Manhattan. More relaxed. A better feeling, for some, than what you get in Manhattan. I am not saying that all Brooklyn is cute vintage shops, cool drinks, music scene, hip families. But this is what it's projecting as a name abroad. And foreigners are buying.

Mimi, I sometimes tell people I live in Manhattan, which is just as accurate as you omitting which PART of BK you live in. If they ask "which part" I say, but to suggest that an entire borough is equivalent to a single neighborhood within such is just dumb.

I mean, people who live in East New York or out by Coney Island are not the same as saying you live in Dumbo or western Wburg by any stretch.

>Mimi, I sometimes tell people I live in Manhattan

Stupid. Real Manhattanites (e.g. me) say they live in New York and don't need to bother with the rest. Saying you live in Manhattan ... I love when I meet someone who tells me he or she went to school in the Boston area. Oh they are so modest they can't even mention the name...

>If you are asking which area will appreciate more, it seems a no-brainer that the on-the-island places - Harlem, East Harlem, WH - will appreciate faster than the off-the-island places.

What an idiot. What's the basis for that statement?

Don't you tell them that you live in greasy dale ?

Jason, you're comment is silly. For quite some time people were willing to make great compromises to be in manhattan. Living in Hell's Kitchen wasn't the same as living in a safer neighborhood but many just wanted to be in manhattan. Brooklyn has become that to a large number of young people, and certain areas are lousy with foreigners. I can't believe how much French I hear in Williamsburg.

Jason, I was talking about what the word "Brooklyn" evokes now in the minds of foreigners. It might be an explanation why brownstones in Bed-Stuy are selling all-cash above-ask. I never said all Brooklyn is the same.

>I can't believe how much French I hear in Williamsburg.

Aboutready, I know you and I have our differences, but I'm with you 100% on this. If you ever want to get together and toss back a few Kronenbourg 1446's, eat some cake, and make fun of the French, let me know.

>Jason, I was talking about what the word "Brooklyn" evokes now in the minds of foreigners. It might be an explanation why brownstones in Bed-Stuy are selling all-cash above-ask. I never said all Brooklyn is the same.

These ferners who fetishize industrialized Brooklyn turned into hipster lofts that have gone upscale, are not the ones who are shelling out the cash.

look, the Cyclone is exciting to ride simply because not many people die on it. Poverty tourism is the same -- a relatively low number of tourists are killed in Harlem. Of course they stay away from East New York.

And yes, *technically* Harlem is New York, but everyone knows it's not *really*. Even if they're polite about it. Techically Daly City is part of Frisco, and Palms is part of LA, and everyone will smile graciously if you say you live there. But you won't get any dinner party invitations, that's for sure. Plus it's cold and it's damp there.

What Harlem really has going for it, and I think it could really be what catapults it into international fame among the next generation of tourists, is its stock of beautiful mid-century modern apartment blocks -- the "Towers in the Park" movement that clusters many of them around lawns. These are unrivaled globally, except perhaps on the outer edges of Paris.

Speaking of that: aboutready, I hope you cover your children's ears so that they don't have to hear the French being spoken in Williamsburgh.

Now back to Spectral Jason, who can't distinguish between reality and made-for-TV fiction ... Peggy bought on the UWS at a time when there were virtually no apartment buildings that had ownership-by-unit. And I believe she wanted to throw out her neighbors. So more likely she bought a whole townhouse. West 80s CPW block houses in the 1960s were $15K, maybe a smidgen more in 1968, when gentrification had taken root [see New York magazine article from that year]. Yet she says "I just bought an apartment" ... ??? Anyway, if she bought the house, I hope she does a big fancy renovation with a conversation pit, hideous exposed brick, and those unbearably awful spiral metal staircases. Cut to commercial.

So who is shelling out the cash?

After what she heard in Chelsea some French won't phase her. Besides, she has taken four years of French. The son is Haitian and bilingual.

Faze.

But Chelsea at the time had a lot of people who were going through a "Gay" phase. They got over it, so now Chelsea has normal people.

Can Caitlyn Jenner live there?