My wife and I made an offer on an apartment in this building at the end of May, it was accepted, and we got a contract signed in early July. We agreed to put 35% down and were approved by both Chase and Wells Fargo to finance the rest. We submitted our application and board package in August. After that, things went quickly downhill. Over the next several months, we were asked to provide... [more]
My wife and I made an offer on an apartment in this building at the end of May, it was accepted, and we got a contract signed in early July. We agreed to put 35% down and were approved by both Chase and Wells Fargo to finance the rest. We submitted our application and board package in August.
After that, things went quickly downhill. Over the next several months, we were asked to provide additional information multiple times, including more detailed financials, letters from our accountant, etc. We resubmitted our full board package THREE TIMES at the request of the board president after we had submitted the initial package.
We obliged, as we thought this was part of the process of jumping through hoops for a co-op board in NYC.
At the end of October, we were rejected by the board. We heard different things from different parties. One side said that the board thought we were going to change the socio-economic makeup of the building. Note, we're not Caucasian. Another said our offer price was too low. Note, this apt, a two unit combo, was a complete gut renovation and required converting one of the kitchens into a bathroom. One of them asked us to put a full year of maintenance in escrow and increase our down payment to 50%. We didn't think the apartment, building, or neighborhood warranted that and decided to walk away as our contract and financing had expired at this point.
We understand that legally a co-op board has full discretion as to who they accept and reject, and do not have to disclose the reasoning behind their decision. But why they made us go through this ordeal for so long when they were going to reject us, conceivably, on our ethnicity and/or offer price anyway is beyond us.
We're writing this as a warning to prospective buyers – this is a normal building and a good neighborhood, but the board is unreasonable and inconsiderate, and possibly racist. Even if you get approved, there's a risk that any renovations and changes to the apartment that require board approval would also be incredibly painstaking with this bunch. Proceed with caution.
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Response by Flutistic
about 10 years ago
Posts: 516
Member since: Apr 2007
Well, they can only reject you for a legal reason. Discrimination because you're in one of the protected classes is not a legal reason.
I commend you for not playing the race card as if it were a dagger. And maybe there is more here we don't know---maybe your reference letters are weak, or they found a skeleton in your closet (say, a prior arrest for dog fighting in another state).
However......If you are pretty sure it's discrimination, you can complain and I hope you do.
You're going to end up someplace much much better, you'll see :)
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Response by MIBNYC
about 10 years ago
Posts: 421
Member since: Mar 2012
Flute, a Board can reject you on race becuase how will you ever prove it ?? Look what they made them go thru and asking wayyyy above they would ask others.
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Response by lad
about 10 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009
I'm confused by the part where the Board asked you to put 50% down and escrow a year of maintenance. Did they conditionally approve you and you chose to walk, or did they reject you outright?
If I had to speculate here, based on the chain of the events and the Board's apparent ask of you..... Gut renovation is a big risk for both the buyer and the Board. I suspect the Board thinks your financial qualifications are marginal relative to the purchase price + planned renovations. The Board probably has its own idea about what renovations should cost, knows that renovations always go over, and is doubling that estimate. They're adding that number, whatever it is, to your purchase price and evaluating your finances against that number. Again, pure speculation, but I suspect their fear is that all of your leftover cash would go toward a renovation, and you could be getting in over your head. They're worried about you not being able to pay maintenance because the renovation depletes your cash at the same time you lose you job. It sounds like they also want you to have more skin in the game, perhaps worried about the potential for you to walk away if the renovation goes horribly awry to the point that the loss you'd take in abandoning the property is cheaper than finishing it.
Not saying any of this is right -- just speculating on what might have happened. The fact that they came back to you twice for more information tells me it may have been a split decision, where certain Board members were trying to make your sale work.
Good luck with your search for a new place!
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Response by Flutistic
about 10 years ago
Posts: 516
Member since: Apr 2007
lad raises some great points. The board has experience with gut renovations in that building, and may know something you don't. For example, I know of a new condo that was incorrectly plumbed in some units, adding to the costs of work there. Accountant letters are de rigueur. Board packages have to follow instructions *exactly* as to the kind of binder, kind of table of contents/index tabs. And of course........there's the price. It's all right for co-op boards to reject purchasers because the agreed-upon price is too low, and some boards announce their policy publicly to shareholders. All that said, the important thing for every board is to treat every applicant the same, whether they belong to a protected class or not. (FYI---lawyers used to be discriminated against on a regular basis, which is how "lawful occupation" got to be a NYC protected class)
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Response by BigRed
about 10 years ago
Posts: 14
Member since: Mar 2009
@lad @flutistic Thanks for your thoughts on this. The broker said that the board did ask us how we were going to pay for the renovation and we told them that my parents would be covering the renovation costs (please withhold judgement haha).
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Response by Flutistic
about 10 years ago
Posts: 516
Member since: Apr 2007
Oh! Well there's you answer :) ! Nothing nefarious, as is usually the case these days.
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Response by BigRed
about 10 years ago
Posts: 14
Member since: Mar 2009
@Flutistic I don't quite follow? Was it the finances you think? I mean it really could've been anything at this point.
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Response by Flutistic
about 10 years ago
Posts: 516
Member since: Apr 2007
Seriously, you don't get it? You can't afford the apartments (there's two!) and the reno without outside help, and the reno is apparently not optional. Doesn't even matter if parents are co-purchasing, or not. End of story. Move on to something you can afford.
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Response by gothamsboro
about 10 years ago
Posts: 536
Member since: Sep 2013
Maybe it isn't racism, i.e. an issue with your "Red", but they just don't like that you are Big?
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Response by lad
about 10 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009
I'll cut the OP some slack. A lot of people don't understand how co-ops are different than fee-simple properties, and a lot of brokers seem not great at explaining it. I just sold my apartment. We received a couple of offers, through brokers at reputable firms, from woefully unqualified buyers. They had a mortgage approval for X and Y cash in the bank. I guess they thought they could afford X+Y, which is what their offer was. The brokers should have counseled their clients that this would never fly in even the most liberal co-op. One of the offers was shocked when we asked whether the buyer intended to have a co-purchaser or guarantor (allowed in my co-op). At that point, we just stopped dealing with that broker/offer because we felt like both broker and client fell off the turnip truck.
It seems from BigRed's post that his broker wasn't straight-up with him. BigRed, did your broker counsel you about your initial offer and what the Board's reaction to it might be? When you said that your parents were going to fund the required renovation, did your broker raise any concerns? Offer any suggestions about whether this was allowed, and if so, how to "package" this for the Board? (Guarantor, gift letter, etc.?)
If your broker didn't do any of this, find a new one. I'm sorry for you; the New York property market is brutal. But this offer was very shaky, with rejection as the most likely outcome from the start. Someone -- the broker -- should have been straight up with you about this. The broker wasted your time and money, not the Board.
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Response by BigRed
about 10 years ago
Posts: 14
Member since: Mar 2009
@Flutistic Thanks for the calm, measured reply.
The apartments were combined back in the 90's. An access door was made between the two apartments, legally, but they were never combined as per the DOB. We would've had to file paperwork to legally combine them, but no other work would go into the combination aspect, e.g. another hole made in the wall between the two apartments. Otherwise it would've been a straightforward renovation.
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Response by BigRed
about 10 years ago
Posts: 14
Member since: Mar 2009
@gothamsboro Haha. I'm a big guy and my favorite color is red. Unless the board members were Crips, I don't think they had any reason to dislike us.
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Response by BigRed
about 10 years ago
Posts: 14
Member since: Mar 2009
@Lad we went in without a broker on our side and only dealt with the seller's broker. We went back and forth on pricing and reached a point everyone was happy with. He did mention that one board member thought it was too low, which is why that particular board member rejected it.
As for the parents paying for the renovation, he never had any issue with it. We had my dad write and sign a letter stating that he and my mother would be covering it.
In terms of wasted time, yes, we wasted time. In terms of money, we got our deposit back. We won't get our frayed nerves back though.
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Response by BigRed
about 10 years ago
Posts: 14
Member since: Mar 2009
I see that the listing was pulled in the last day or two.
Either the seller's estate has switched brokers or the theory of the crooked board might be true.
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Response by JJ2
about 10 years ago
Posts: 114
Member since: May 2014
are you planning on a lawsuit ?
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Response by lad
about 10 years ago
Posts: 707
Member since: Apr 2009
Maybe the seller's estate read this thread or talked to someone knowledgeable and learned what a bad broker they hired. The broker cost them time and money. They spent months off the market and paying maintenance for an offer that was ultimately rejected.
Especially if the estate is not up to speed on the rules of co-ops (and why would they be?), the broker needed to present this offer to them realistically, and to raise the possibility or even likelihood of rejection. If I were the sellers, I'd be furious. I'd also not be able to erase concerns that the broker took a gamble to collect double commission rather than continue to market the property to find a qualified buyer, who would likely be represented by another broker.
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Response by BigRed
about 10 years ago
Posts: 14
Member since: Mar 2009
@JJ2 no lawsuit planned.
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Response by BigRed
about 10 years ago
Posts: 14
Member since: Mar 2009
@gothamsboro Peoria? Topeka?!?! That's aiming way too high for us.
No, we got rejected in Rapid City, IA.
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Response by owen75_1004247
almost 10 years ago
Posts: 0
Member since: Feb 2007
I bought a studio in this building almost a year ago. I'm single, female, and African-American. The board process required more paperwork than my mortgage (as per usual) but I had no issues. The only color that factored in to BigRed's experience was green.
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Response by Admin2009
almost 10 years ago
Posts: 380
Member since: Mar 2014
Never tell the Board that you will do any renovations ... ever
( except painting of course )
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Response by JARucker
over 4 years ago
Posts: 2
Member since: Mar 2011
Many of the comments here are dated and may not be relevant to today's buyer, seller and shareholder. We encourage you to follow the Why I Love Living in the Victoria House discussion for more up to date insights into our welcoming community.
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Response by bramstar
over 4 years ago
Posts: 1909
Member since: May 2008
Why even bother to unearth this thread then? No one has looked at it in five years, but you can be sure we'll all be checking it out now...
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Response by George
over 4 years ago
Posts: 1327
Member since: Jul 2017
This is a very interesting thread. Thanks for resurfacing it. I wish more buyers called out inept (and possibly worse) coop boards.
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Response by Krolik
over 4 years ago
Posts: 1370
Member since: Oct 2020
What a terrifying experience!
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Response by buyer2021
over 4 years ago
Posts: 4
Member since: Feb 2018
I heard there's a new board president in this building. Can anyone share a recent experience buying here? Thanks!
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Well, they can only reject you for a legal reason. Discrimination because you're in one of the protected classes is not a legal reason.
I commend you for not playing the race card as if it were a dagger. And maybe there is more here we don't know---maybe your reference letters are weak, or they found a skeleton in your closet (say, a prior arrest for dog fighting in another state).
However......If you are pretty sure it's discrimination, you can complain and I hope you do.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fhnyc/html/complaint/complaint.shtml
You're going to end up someplace much much better, you'll see :)
Flute, a Board can reject you on race becuase how will you ever prove it ?? Look what they made them go thru and asking wayyyy above they would ask others.
I'm confused by the part where the Board asked you to put 50% down and escrow a year of maintenance. Did they conditionally approve you and you chose to walk, or did they reject you outright?
If I had to speculate here, based on the chain of the events and the Board's apparent ask of you..... Gut renovation is a big risk for both the buyer and the Board. I suspect the Board thinks your financial qualifications are marginal relative to the purchase price + planned renovations. The Board probably has its own idea about what renovations should cost, knows that renovations always go over, and is doubling that estimate. They're adding that number, whatever it is, to your purchase price and evaluating your finances against that number. Again, pure speculation, but I suspect their fear is that all of your leftover cash would go toward a renovation, and you could be getting in over your head. They're worried about you not being able to pay maintenance because the renovation depletes your cash at the same time you lose you job. It sounds like they also want you to have more skin in the game, perhaps worried about the potential for you to walk away if the renovation goes horribly awry to the point that the loss you'd take in abandoning the property is cheaper than finishing it.
Not saying any of this is right -- just speculating on what might have happened. The fact that they came back to you twice for more information tells me it may have been a split decision, where certain Board members were trying to make your sale work.
Good luck with your search for a new place!
lad raises some great points. The board has experience with gut renovations in that building, and may know something you don't. For example, I know of a new condo that was incorrectly plumbed in some units, adding to the costs of work there. Accountant letters are de rigueur. Board packages have to follow instructions *exactly* as to the kind of binder, kind of table of contents/index tabs. And of course........there's the price. It's all right for co-op boards to reject purchasers because the agreed-upon price is too low, and some boards announce their policy publicly to shareholders. All that said, the important thing for every board is to treat every applicant the same, whether they belong to a protected class or not. (FYI---lawyers used to be discriminated against on a regular basis, which is how "lawful occupation" got to be a NYC protected class)
@lad @flutistic Thanks for your thoughts on this. The broker said that the board did ask us how we were going to pay for the renovation and we told them that my parents would be covering the renovation costs (please withhold judgement haha).
Oh! Well there's you answer :) ! Nothing nefarious, as is usually the case these days.
@Flutistic I don't quite follow? Was it the finances you think? I mean it really could've been anything at this point.
Seriously, you don't get it? You can't afford the apartments (there's two!) and the reno without outside help, and the reno is apparently not optional. Doesn't even matter if parents are co-purchasing, or not. End of story. Move on to something you can afford.
Maybe it isn't racism, i.e. an issue with your "Red", but they just don't like that you are Big?
I'll cut the OP some slack. A lot of people don't understand how co-ops are different than fee-simple properties, and a lot of brokers seem not great at explaining it. I just sold my apartment. We received a couple of offers, through brokers at reputable firms, from woefully unqualified buyers. They had a mortgage approval for X and Y cash in the bank. I guess they thought they could afford X+Y, which is what their offer was. The brokers should have counseled their clients that this would never fly in even the most liberal co-op. One of the offers was shocked when we asked whether the buyer intended to have a co-purchaser or guarantor (allowed in my co-op). At that point, we just stopped dealing with that broker/offer because we felt like both broker and client fell off the turnip truck.
It seems from BigRed's post that his broker wasn't straight-up with him. BigRed, did your broker counsel you about your initial offer and what the Board's reaction to it might be? When you said that your parents were going to fund the required renovation, did your broker raise any concerns? Offer any suggestions about whether this was allowed, and if so, how to "package" this for the Board? (Guarantor, gift letter, etc.?)
If your broker didn't do any of this, find a new one. I'm sorry for you; the New York property market is brutal. But this offer was very shaky, with rejection as the most likely outcome from the start. Someone -- the broker -- should have been straight up with you about this. The broker wasted your time and money, not the Board.
@Flutistic Thanks for the calm, measured reply.
The apartments were combined back in the 90's. An access door was made between the two apartments, legally, but they were never combined as per the DOB. We would've had to file paperwork to legally combine them, but no other work would go into the combination aspect, e.g. another hole made in the wall between the two apartments. Otherwise it would've been a straightforward renovation.
@gothamsboro Haha. I'm a big guy and my favorite color is red. Unless the board members were Crips, I don't think they had any reason to dislike us.
@Lad we went in without a broker on our side and only dealt with the seller's broker. We went back and forth on pricing and reached a point everyone was happy with. He did mention that one board member thought it was too low, which is why that particular board member rejected it.
As for the parents paying for the renovation, he never had any issue with it. We had my dad write and sign a letter stating that he and my mother would be covering it.
In terms of wasted time, yes, we wasted time. In terms of money, we got our deposit back. We won't get our frayed nerves back though.
I see that the listing was pulled in the last day or two.
Either the seller's estate has switched brokers or the theory of the crooked board might be true.
are you planning on a lawsuit ?
Maybe the seller's estate read this thread or talked to someone knowledgeable and learned what a bad broker they hired. The broker cost them time and money. They spent months off the market and paying maintenance for an offer that was ultimately rejected.
Especially if the estate is not up to speed on the rules of co-ops (and why would they be?), the broker needed to present this offer to them realistically, and to raise the possibility or even likelihood of rejection. If I were the sellers, I'd be furious. I'd also not be able to erase concerns that the broker took a gamble to collect double commission rather than continue to market the property to find a qualified buyer, who would likely be represented by another broker.
@JJ2 no lawsuit planned.
@gothamsboro Peoria? Topeka?!?! That's aiming way too high for us.
No, we got rejected in Rapid City, IA.
I bought a studio in this building almost a year ago. I'm single, female, and African-American. The board process required more paperwork than my mortgage (as per usual) but I had no issues. The only color that factored in to BigRed's experience was green.
Never tell the Board that you will do any renovations ... ever
( except painting of course )
Many of the comments here are dated and may not be relevant to today's buyer, seller and shareholder. We encourage you to follow the Why I Love Living in the Victoria House discussion for more up to date insights into our welcoming community.
Why even bother to unearth this thread then? No one has looked at it in five years, but you can be sure we'll all be checking it out now...
This is a very interesting thread. Thanks for resurfacing it. I wish more buyers called out inept (and possibly worse) coop boards.
What a terrifying experience!
I heard there's a new board president in this building. Can anyone share a recent experience buying here? Thanks!