Gut renovation cost?

We did a gut renovation in 2013 of a comparably-sized UWS prewar classic 6, with major surgery, including adding a 3rd bedroom, creating a new dining room, redoing all wiring, redoing 2 baths, converting the maid’s bath into a laundry room and reconfiguring the kitchen and maid’s room space to create a larger kitchen with a small home office. We put in new floors where we had to, but did not do the entire apartment, and did through-the-wall A/C rather than central A/C. We got a similar range of bids and unfortunately ended up going with the low bid, which ultimately cost around $425K all-in, but got what we paid for…

Email me if you want to discuss in greater detail – I have all costs broken down on a spreadsheet.

Dan Gotlieb
Digs Realty Group
www.digsrealtynyc.com
dan@digsrealtynyc.com

newbie, For that size apartment, I would go for nice finishes including custom mill-work. Nice finishes also means higher labor. Including architect/designer etc you are looking at $600k min+ at least 10 percent overrun. If you have the money, I would go high-end.

The estimates you are getting are accurate. I assume you mean Manhattan, yes? Ultimate cost depends upon finishes and choices. Are you replacing all the doors with solid Trustile type doors with higher end hardware? Using premium bathroom fixtures? Rewiring? Skim coating walls? Adding crown and/or base moldings? Need to move or upgrade the fuse box? How many light switches and outlets are you adding? Built in sound system? Do the windows need replacing? Millwork for radiator covers and more? without knowing your answers here, it is impossible to get more specific. no matter how you slice it, the rule of thumb is pretty constant: for high-ish end job you are looking at $200-300 per square foot. For what you list, the central air and 2.5 bathrooms is what'll kill you in terms of cost. Those, along with the kitchen are the highest cost things to do. The estimate includes architect fees, building fees, expeditor fee, permits.

uwsnewbie2015,

It is impossible to give you an accurate cost because there are so many variables as Kylewest pointed out.

What are your expectations? Is your project hi-end, medium, low end? Are all the walls coming down?
There will be many items you need to buy and those items vary in price, you can get a glassos countertop for 20k or a Caesarstone countertop for 4k. I am finding that most of my clients are spending $400 sq ft for full gut renovations but there are ways to bring those costs down.

If you have any questions about the process as a firs time home buyer fell free to email me or call

primerenovations@mac.com
primerenovationsnyc.com
646-436-3942

Jeff

The others have good information above. I would add that what you propose simply is not doable for $375K in Manhattan. I don't know where you plan on putting a/c compressors and what is involved in running electric and refrigerant lines, but the a/c alone likely is going to cost $75K or more unless you have a roof our outdoor space above or adjacent to you. Gut renovating 2.5 baths and a new kitchen with the usual suspects of Sub-Zero type appliances, depending upon size, quality and number of fixtures, will likely be $125K or more. If you take DanDigs $425K number, and adjust for the "you get what you pay for" and adding in central a/c, you are up in the $600K vicinity.

Primer05 is spot on for what I paid for a very comparable gut renovation of a 2200 sq ft, 4 bed/3.5 bath prewar coop in Brooklyn Heights. We were able to vent my HVAC system into a nearby courtyard, so those related expenses were about half what nyc_sport describes. The half bath was converted to a laundry room since location of the other baths was perfectly adequate to accommodate my family and guests. The walls even of rooms where the footprint was kept came down to allow for upgrade of electric wiring and the AC ducts, and we went with appliances/finishes that were custom but the lower range of high end (subZ and Bosch in the kitchen, carrara in kitchen/baths, white oak floors, etc). The largest windows facing NY Harbor were replaced to provide better insulation, but we were able to keep the old windows in other parts of the apartment. Millwork included built-ins in the living room and office, radiator covers, and custom kitchen/bath cabinets. Including architect, expeditor, GC, DOB, building engineer, we came in at just under $400 psf. And the last time I posted about my experience, my finishes were called "cheap" by a couple of other posters... LOL (or not)!

We gutted 3br 3bth on higher end. Our gc quotes went from 160k-350k. We went with the lower end because gc came with good references. Their work was amazing. Why would would one quote 160k and another double that ?
Check the quotes, better ones break it down. The $500 fire alarm charge (x5) equivalent to $15 at home depot is one reason. I dont doubt the fit and finish of more expensive gc's but, that does not mean they have a lock on great work. Due diligence/references are your best tool.

knewbie--you GUTTED a 3br 3bth and paid 160k to a GC to do so? Does that include materials? How many sqft is the apt and where is it located? What exactly does a gut mean to you? Those numbers seem waaaaay to cheap to me.

knewbie, Is $160k-$350k just labor? I can not imagine 3b/3bath for $350k including finishes and materials. Nice bathroom gut with marble/travertine with cost you $40k without using dornbract or high end fixtures.

We just GUT renovated a 1900 sq ft co-op including, new floors new windows, new electrical brought up to the apt, significant reconfiguration, CAC, skim coating, significant millwork, etc. This CANNOT be done for anywhere near 350k never mind 160k. It can't be done in any kind of higher-end way for less than $350-400/sqft without very serious cutting of corners. The end.

We had some overruns, so about 190k. This is just GC labor . Location is UES, classic 7, a little over 2000sf.
Gut is....everything in kitchen/bathrooms ripped out to plaster/wire mesh. One major wall removal.Walls are cinder block construction. Replace all doors+ metal frames, replace w/Trustile custom (best for sound insulation). We also installed 3 large double french panel . Trustile is top of the line for solid build/hinges,feel is great. On entrance Doors, I recommend, go big if u can, 84 inches high on standard NYC height apts. New floors , remove all floors to base concrete, new plywood. Glue+ nail 5 inch hardwood maple(belt and suspenders with glue+nail, but best not to risk cupping with 5 inch. Kitchen was most expensive part, all in + high end appliances, sub z, dishwasher etc, 100k. Bathrooms, restoration hardware faucets/plumbing/shelves . Tile on main b-room was white thassos, (other bathrooms comparable tile) beautiful, but a pain to maintain. Dont go for the RH rain shower head, spend extra and get 8 inch Grohe, solid, the best. RH is like tin in comparison. No central air but removed 5 thru wall units and put in 5 ptacs(very quite, recommend, lots of works as they had to break open a larger opening on all, used Stanley Ruth) Custom full length wood covers on all + custom cherry wall unit (Little Wolf, excellent quality, but does not paint or stain). Also installed Citi quiet windows(orig windows stayed) on all rooms(highly recommend). Skim coat all rooms plus large foyer. I understand skim can be done at diff levels, but my eyes dont lie regarding the results. GC did give allowance for floor and door moldings + paint . We did not do moldings on ceilings. Also new Miele washer/dryer (custom front panel), way more expensive then yr other brands, but as my gc put it "quietest washer he has ever heard", highly recommend. No rewiring of apt on electrical. kept it under my limit on load. Electrical did include channeling on walls for new lites. All new switches/sockets . All in, 500k. Full permit/dob w drawings job. I did not have architect supervise. I am not in field but managed managed it myself. No designer, wife and I did the choosing, classic white modern look is not too hard. We did have full kitchen design firm . Its really hard to do that yrself. Custom inset cabinets, 1 inch thickness. Name escapes on stone we used, wife picked it. Expensive part was we needed two slabs since this particular stone did not come in a standard large size. We also used lighting consultant as we wanted to get proper lighting since we ripped all the older can lights/fixtures out.

You can go build design firm and easily pay 300k. We also saw another classic 7 done by our high bidder. Not sure why I would pay double as his quality was no better. Main reason people pay more is , they dont have the time to research/get quotes/manage or basically just dont want to i.e I got my 5 inch first quality maple floors by calling around. Supply for 2000 sq ft is hard to locate, but I did and saved $2 a square foot. End of day, all in $250 sq ft
Most people in this range just make alot of $'s and dont need the headache of managing. And yes gc's pad and duplicate expenses . One gc had so many lines on his quote it was confusing till I sat down and pointed out his duplications, and some were very expensive. Another gc just gave me one giant lump number next to a long paragraph of work. Its amazing the range and variety of gc's out there,

knewbie,
"GC's pad duplicate expenses" You get this from your experience with one contractor? I guess what you are trying to say is you paid $250 sq ft for your gut renovation and you did a lot of leg work yourself with no architect or designer supervision. That is doable. The original poster asked how much would their renovation cost, compared to her estimates you are right in the middle at 500k. Its not that amazing the range and variety of GC's out there it is pretty much the same in any business. Some GC's will charge roughly $1,200 sq ft and some would charge $100 sq ft. McDonalds would cost $20.00 and Babbo would cost $400.00. The holiday inn is $100 a night and The Ocean club is $700 a night off peak. I think you will find this in every single business you can think of

If the ocean club is serving the same exact burger as mcdonalds, why pay more ? As mentioned , its not for everyone. We have met many who pay double what we did and are quite happy. They dont have time and money is not an issue. If it takes a 2 hour drive to get to the nearest mcdonalds, and ocean club is right in front of you and money is not an issue, even I would recommend you go right in.

kenwbie, Glad you managed to get it done for $250 per sq ft and are happy. Here are some typical cost differences from high-end you saved:
1. $20k from supervising yourself.
2. Wide plank 8 inch or herringbone 5 inch floors in custom color can be 25-30 per sq ft installed. You probably spent $15 installed. $20k saving.
3. Ceiling moldings $20k.
4. CAC vs PTAC $25k.
5. Custom closets from Polyform vs ??? $20k
6. Custom cabinetry in the bathroom??

Knewbie,

My point is they are not the same burger. The contractor who is charging $100 sq ft cannot give you the same quality as the guy charging more. There is a reason the guy is 100 sq ft

http://nypost.com/2015/08/06/mcdonalds-new-gourmet-burger-is-actually-really-good/

Primer,

It depends on what you are doing. Do you need a $300 hour craftsman to install a toilet ? of course not. Maybe on some difficult curved arched ceilings with exotic finishes. If your project is plain vanilla, and I though mine was, a lower sf cost is not the kiss of death. I am sure you have had to fix many hack jobs done at lower cost. But if your logic holds, then there is no such thing as overpaying, and we know thats not true.

Merc,
For our project a few cost savings are notable...
Architect, licensed cost 10-12k includes full submitted plans and about a half dozen changes and all filing fees. Supervision 1x a week would have added about another 8k. On a high end classic 7, a friend paid near 100k which included design help and supervision.
We interviewed this architect, highly pedigreed , but we thought overpriced for our needs. our friends used him, they loved him and he did excellent work. I dont argue that higher price many times gets you quality, but overpaying is
also a very real possibility. If you asses your situation and needs correctly, you can save quite a bit.
Also, any project you feed thru your gc will get marked up, i.e floors. we had a great quote from Carlos wood floors, great rep. But chose to go thru our gc, which cost me about 20% more, but I felt coordination with demo/time frame was better so paying the higher cost did not bother me.
Main savings though was in gc, i would estimate about 100-200k depending on the estimates I rec'd. I took 6.
If you go thru design build, you get locked into purchasing thru their suppliers, so you could easily have built
100-200k onto what we paid. If you need the hand holding, go for it. We did not
Best use of my money was kitchen, go with good reputable designer/kitchen specialist. My total on kitchen including all , granite, appliances, vent, washer/dryer was about 100k. GC included install on quote, we passed on install via
kitchen designer, good move as gc did excellent job
On bathrooms, we did not use custom cabinets, RH bathroom painted cabinets fit and are beautiful. $400 toilets, Some $300-400 sinks, that level of pricing. Rh fixtures, 8 inch spread faucets, RH shower fixtures. I contracted out separately on my glass shower enclosers. It can be a pain, as installer cracked glass tile on first install. But again, what you dont feed thru gc saves a few thousand here and there and it all adds up.
At the end of the day, a lousy job looks lousy. We have had re agents and friends with higher cost reno's come thru,
They are amazed at what we did. If you want to save 100-200k on reno, very poss. Our job took 4 months.
I have no beef with gc's who charge more, its their profit margin and cost structure. More power to them if they can do it. I have no doubt they have plenty of happy customers. But as a customer, I'm not a charity and I look for quality
at a better price. Again, Not for everyone, if your a master of the universe and have better things to do with your time, dont go there.

Sorry for the lousy formatting, typing in that small window is a pain, and clearly I have no skills in that.

What is the best way to get financing for a gut reno of these magnitudes ?

knewbie, your approach is exactly what we are looking to do. And your post gives us hope. If you don't mind, we would love to speak with you. We need to send out bids to GCs soon but given our first time doing reno, we don't really have any good leads yet. My email is chen36@hotmail.com. thank you.

Hi knewbie, I'm planning to take a similar approach as you (for next year reno but smaller scale) - hire a good GC for mostly labor, pick out finishes/design/manage myself. Can you give me the name of the contractor you used? I would love to speak with you if possible to learn more from your experience - my email is philip.m.hong at gmail. Much appreciated!

so ado06, you decided to go with more of a DIY approach? I can't imagine what thats like, but certainly lots of people on here appear to have done it successfully. One thing I DO know, though, is that, assuming you have a full-time job now, you are about to embark on another full-time job. The amount of detail to learn on the fly is breathtaking unless you are very experienced.

It is time consuming, if both husband and work. It can get stressful. I would say that if you are organized and know what you want in terms of style, color and your able to make quick decisions vs mulling over the myriad of choices out there, the experience will be much better. I would not do it to save 20-40k, but 100-200k is a good incentive.

Best of luck , let us know how it comes out

bfgross, yes i'd like to try that approach. I am completely inexperienced but I want to see for myself how hard it is :) I might luck out. I want to thank DanDigs and knewbie for kindly sharing their experience.

If you want to do more yourself do not underestimate the significance of husband and wife having a professional intermediator on the design issues.

There is definitely something about getting what you get what you pay for, but that is not always the case. Often times, you pay what the market will bear. I needed unfinished floors protected in two rooms for mandated window removal. The job essentially involved putting masonite on the floors and taping craft paper over the top. To put down the equivalent of 22 sheets in 2.5 rooms, I received two estimates. First was $3,000 plus 22% for overhead and profit. The second was $1800. Personally, I thought pricing for both were outrageous.. But does anyone think that sort of job should vary this greatly? And the first estimate was from a person who wants my business for the upcoming gut rehab. I would love to use him, but his pricing model tells me that we are probably not a good fit. So Newbie, if you would kindly send me information about your project experience, I would greatly appreciate it. My email is PiedonCPW@gmail.com.

There are reasons why a person can get prices that vary.

Different companies over different types of service. The less expensive guy might just have laborers and a couple of carpenters with very little overhead while another company might have more expensive carpenters, site supers and project managers as well as a big back office. (your project obviously does not need all of that but they still have to account for it)

Just like most things there is supply and demand. If you called a company that is swamped they have no choice to go in high, if you call a smaller contractor and they have little work they might take on the project at cost just to keep their guys busy

Insurance is also an issue, many contractors tell their insurance company that all they do is paint and their subs are not covered , there insurance might cost 5k a year where a bigger company who has the right insurance can pay over 100k for the year, those costs have to be passed on to the consumer, that also goes for workers comp insurance

I would still have the first guy price out your gut renovation if you want to use him, you can't go by the price he gave you for the protection to mean they are not reasonable.

I used this calculator to calculate my renovation cost. http://www.dfastudioprogram.com/calculator.htm

Note that I never actually used this architect/contractor, but it was a good ball-park for a high-end renovation.

thats a pretty good calculator, much more realistic than lots of the numbers that get bandied about on streeteasy!