5490 sq ft Really

Property tax bill says 4600 finished. Even that feels high. I guess since the owners are having a big loss on owning the place, they need to lie to the next owner.

I guess there are buyers with a lot of money - some of which earned in tech companies going public at ridiculous valuations or being bought out by mega-techs. They probably do not care about metrics if they like it.

I really wish there was more standardization and enforcement of SQFT measurements. Suggestions that every buyer measures the space with their own architect are very impractical - they mean that the same space is measured multiple times (wasteful) or not measured at all. And any comparisons between properties are super hard to make, since I cannot go and measure the comps also. Plus, buyers in the home market are not buying too often, so many are not informed about real estate agent gross misstatements. When I buy yogurt in a supermarket, I am provided labels with accurate measurements, not asked to weigh every product myself. Why is this any different?

While most of us wish for that it is not going to happen as politicians are busier strengthening renter protections. Real estate is different from other consumer purchases as the buyer has plenty of time to evaluate and is free to hire professionals to represent them. As I mentioned in the other thread, it is not a click and buy purchase.

In fact, politicians use property owners as cash cows - for example mortgage tax and various transfer taxes in NY.

Why shouldn't buying a home be a one click purchase? Lennar, who builds 40,000 homes a year, is trying to get there. From a recent earnings call: "we will improve our entire end-to-end process to get to a one-tap closing." Everything that interferes with a one-click closing is friction that needs to be eliminated from the process.

Meanwhile in NY we have an entire industry who benefits from creating as much friction as possible then justifies it by saying that buyers can hire professionals to represent them.

Maybe lennar can offer this with new construction in the suburbs where there are a lot of guarantees built in. I'm not sure I'd want to 'one click purchase' with the biggest amount of money I'll spend in my life, without the ability to do proper due diligence, especially on a co-op or condo purchase in New York City. After 35 years in this business I've heard too many nightmare stories regarding post-close scenarios, mostly in single-family homes outside of the city where due diligence is a minimum.

It's only about $1,000 to hire a home inspector and let's say another $2,500 for a real estate attorney in New York City. I'm doing my part to reduce the transaction costs as well on the broker end. Even when I bought properties outside of New York City I've had brokers rolling their eyes as I do a few additional layers of due diligence including getting my attorney involved to review the contract.

Most importantly, get a very good home inspector/engineer. Then have a very good real estate attorney in place.

Keith
TBG

These "experts" or advisors give people a false sense of security. We saw it on another thread where someone was thinking that hiring an appraiser would give them a proper sense of the value of a property. Inspectors can't find things behind the walls or under the floors, which are much bigger issues than whether the dishwasher has a recall. Real estate attorneys exist only because the system in NYC is needlessly complex and tilted against buyers.

The point of one-tap is that it puts the onus of disclosure on the party with the knowledge, which is the seller, in order to make it easier to buy property. One big reason I've not bought in NYC but have bought elsewhere is the strongly "caveat emptor" situation - buyers get screwed (BTDT). The transaction costs - especially the taxes - are another big reason.

George, Lennar selling new build home is very different from an individual seller offering a warranty on what they are selling. Try getting a warranty on a used car from an individual or pay a premium for the same used car from a dealer with warranty. While I wish you well with your vacation home purchase, but only time will tell how that works out on a pure investment basis.

Hope you got a nice commission rebate from the broker you love so much and she negotiated a nice discount from asking price.

Did you leave money on the table if you didn’t get a commission rebate? That money may be far more than the transaction costs you are complaining about in NYC?

Or she good someone from NY to get to pay over ask and still is the best and loved by you vs all the brokers in NYC who showed you in last couple of years and never got a dime. That is a skill set of nowhere broker.

It is "registered" with the city at 4600 sq ft.
Im on a bad computer to dissect the floor plan but it appears they've added the 2 outdoor spaces to the 4600 to come up with the total they are advertising.

Or the basement while counting the double ceiling height space as twice the square footage. The second part seems to be reasonable to me even though it is only volume rather than square footage.

Re "independent experts", the bank appraisal on my recent purchase says:

MARKET CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN IMPROVING THE PAST 12+ MONTHS WITH THE FIRST SIGNS OF APPRECIATION NOTED. SOME SHORTAGES OF AVAILABLE PROPERTIES ARE BEING CITED HOWEVER, SUPPLY AND DEMAND ARE GENERALLY IN BALANCE.

That's right, they're claiming the market improved during Covid, leading to "shortage". In motherfucking FiDi.

You'd be insane to trust such people. The best thing I could possibly say is that they wrote a generic blurb 5 years ago and have been lazily cut/pasting it into every document since then. The alternative would be to call them knowingly crooked.

If you bought at more than 5-7% discount to listing price in non ultra-luxury, the appraiser will almost always justify the purchase as they are chosen supposedly by the "prudent" part of the bank so that they can package it into securities. If an appraiser dings a reasonable deal, relationship people at the bank will very quickly figure out a way to get rid of them. Also, bank has down-payment and credit of the buyer to protect them against 5-10% appraisal error.

If you hire an appraiser yourself, you may get better analysis. But real estate really can't be valued that precisely.

Bank appraisers seem to work backwards.
They have the answer (dollar amount), now work backwards to make the price fit and bless the loan.
Its statistically impossible that all these buyers bought correctly.
Based on bank appraisers, if all the people who bought homes went on the game show the Price is Right, 99.87 % of the people would be guessing the showcase price(s) within $100. :)

Indeed. I found it odd at my house in Nowhere that both appraisers came to the exact same amount, which happened to be exactly 5% over the purchase price, based on different comps, different views of the market (one said flat prices and declining inventory; the other said rising prices and flat inventory), different views of the neighborhood (one said very good; the other said good but not great), different opinions on the condition, and even different square footages (one included the finished cellar; the other didn't).

Supposedly banks cleaned up these conflicts of interest in 2009, but it still seems the appraisers are doing the bank's job. No wonder Fannie is allowing more and more AVMs.

I recently saw a square footage report on a property on an MLS. Here's what it looks like. There was also a page with the measured exterior dimensions and the exclusions, which excluded the portion "open to below".

***

The undersigned hereby certifies that we have measured the property described above, on December 9, 2020 and our findings are as follows:

Finished, Heated, Living Square Footage: ### square feet
Garage: ### sq. ft. (not included)
Unfinished Mechanical Rm: ## sq. ft. (not included)
Storage: ### sq. ft. (not included)

The above findings have been calculated in accordance to the guidelines for the American National Standards
Institute (ANSI Z765-2015 American National Standard for Single-Family Residential Buildings). The on-site/as built calculation for finished square footage is for
a detached single family home. The calculation includes the lower, main, upper and loft levels of the residence which are heated, sheet rocked, and which are considered finished heated livable area. The main, upper and loft levels are above grade and were measured and calculated to the exterior finished face of the exterior walls. The lower level is partially below grade and has been measured and calculated to the exterior face of the foundation walls. There is a garage on the lower level that totaled ### sq. ft. and is not included in the total calculation. The unfinished mechanical room is located
on the lower level and according to the guidelines, this area cannot be included in the total calculation.

As per ANSI Z765-2015 (American National Standards Guidelines for measuring Single Family Homes) Wall and
ceiling finishes include but are not limited to painted gypsum wall board, wallpaper-cover plaster board, and wood paneling. Floor finishes include but are not limited to carpeting, vinyl sheeting, hardwood flooring, and concrete floor with decorative finishes but do not include bare or painted concrete. Decorative finishes are long-lasting or permanent components of the slab produced by such methods as chemical staining, integral coloration of the concrete, scoring, or stamping that modify the texture of appearance of the slab.

[Company] has exercised its best efforts to perform an on-site/as built measurement of the property as
accurately as possible. It is understood however that there can be some uncertainty with respect to the accuracy of any square footage measurement due to variations in finished surfaces as well as interior and exterior wall construction, as well as other factors. This measurement should not be construed as a calculation of Floor Area Ratio (FAR), which uses different guidelines, excluding and including various types of space which are not excluded/included here.

For houses in NYC, DOB/DOF square footage is very accurate and uses the standards you describe outside wall to outside wall. No space which is more than 50 percent below grade which is officially a cellar.