Thoughts on Loft Conversion?

Not legally even if you can actually recoup 13' ceiling which I highly doubt. Coop will certainly not allow it unless there is a precedent to create storage space which will be less 66'' height as the space below that needs to be appx 7' tall.

Thanks @300. When you say "legally", do you mean a lofted space cannot legally be called a bedroom (I agree with this), or I can't legally expose the beams? I've seen images of quite a number of units in the building with exposed beams (hope I'm using the right terms/words), so I don't think I'd be asking for something novel. I've also seen tons of images of similar setups in other coops, so 12+' or ~13' ceiling height doesn't seem like an impossible number to create a loft space in e.g.

https://streeteasy.com/building/372-5-avenue-new_york/sale/1604937

https://streeteasy.com/building/372-5-avenue-new_york/7a

What you see already built does not mean DOB will give you permission now? DOB may give you permission for storage space if you are lucky to get COOP approval first based on precedents in the building. Exposing the beam depends on fireproofing and precedents in the coop as it exposes neighbors above to more fire risk and noise from your unit (DOB approval is typically not needed for this).

Aaaah I see what you mean. Yes, I was thinking too that it would probably be better apportioned as storage space (which is badly needed in the unit, by the way). I just thought maybe I could throw a mattress there too... lol. You're saying DOB approval is not needed to expose the beam?

Whether you can “expose the beams” depends upon the construction of the bldg i.e whether such beams actually exist (we know nothing of the construction of the subject building), whether the floor assembly is required to be fire rated, and whether the ceiling finishes are part of that fire rated assembly.

Hmmm..mm.. good point, @INT. Although I may want to hazard a guess and say it's not because I see some other units with exposed beams, I'm not sure, since those other units are actually on other floors.

This is the kind of thing you may want to have a conversation with the building super about.

If I was inclined to be doing construction in a unit which had ceilings dropped from 13 feet to 11 feet I would probably start by demoing the entire ceiling and assessing the situation (and then most probably installing a new improved ceiling). There is an entire floor at 111 4th Avenue which benefits from this.

I was thinking of 111 4th Ave when I read this thread. A good example of just what Joey wants to accomplish.

@front_porch - I plan on doing this. And from what I hear, they'd be a good resource too, since they've been with the building for around 2 decades or thereabout. Thanks.

@30yrs - I wonder if I'm using the right terms to describe what I'm thinking/trying to do. I'm just trying to expose the ceilings so I gain a few extra feet (or inches) in ceiling height. Is this the right term?

@theburkhardtgroup - I looked up that building. Is there a particular unit there I should check out for reference? Perhaps one that shows the before and after?

@joey42, 3 Hanover is another good reference building for you -- the former Cotton Exchange; dropped ceilings were put in when the building was converted from office to residential. Then a spate of residents (working with the building) took their dropped ceilings out. You can generally tell apartments that haven't, because their window lines look off.

Here's an apartment I sold in 3 Hanover ... yow, eight years ago! ... time flies when you're having fun! with a sleeping platform.

https://streeteasy.com/sale/1032453

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

@front_porch - Thanks Ali! Wow... 8yrs sounds like such a long time! But then, considering the past 2yrs have been nothing but a blur, maybe it's not that long after all. ? Thank you! I just looked at the unit - yes, that's where my mind is. I'll check out some other units there too for inspiration.

I've also seen it done at 310 E 46th St (in a unit that has since been combined with another, and the sleeping loft was done away with). That was a particularly low-ceilinged loft. See for example 6J, and maybe 5W in that building.

@Aaron2 - Thanks for that reference. Indeed, that's the idea I have in mind. I checked out both units and then compared with others in the building. It appears all the ceilings there are vaulted by default (all stated to be 12.5'). Shows it's possible to have a lofted sleeping area with that ceiling height (and you know these things are often overstated, so the actual ceiling height may be even less than that). ?

But I have to ask: Why, really, do you want to create a sleeping loft? Stairs are going to take up valuable floor space downstairs, the loft construction will take 6-10", and unless you find a really high ceilinged unit, that loft space is always going to be low ceilinged. I've slept in one (at the aforementioned address), and can verify firsthand you certainly won't be doing many acrobatics in bed.

When I was younger and had such an arrangement, my criteria was I needed to be able to sit up in bed, anything more was icing on the cake.

I found this arrangement preferable to some sort of pull-out bed. Although I think the ideal situation would be to find an alcove studio, if it's a budget issue. Or just find a neighborhood where your budget will get you significantly more. Or perhaps you're already living in this place? Running out so I don't have time to reread the thread.

Separate unrelated note, when I didn't have to live in proximity to a school for the kids. I really discovered some great neighborhoods as I chased cheap rent. I found it fun and exciting to explore different parts of the city (once I got over my I'll never live outside of Manhattan mindset).

Now my only regrets are not buying a brownstone in Bed stuy, Clinton hill or Fort Greene back in the 90s : )

@Aaron - I like the space I saw and I'm thinking of ways to maximize it. As expected, Manhattan doesn't give you a lot of real estate for your money, so I'm trying to make the very best of any space I get. If ceiling height is indeed 13' after exposure, I think that's a lot of vertical space that'll be wasted (or at least, could be put to some use) beyond the living room area.

Right now, I'm dabbling between making it a full bedroom height loft and then a large storage space under OR a full bedroom on the lower portion and then a sleeping loft/storage space on the upper level. The former would be great in terms of storage accessibility (the building, unlike many coops I've seen, does not have dedicated storage space in the basement for each unit and God knows I need the storage ?). The latter, however, could potentially offer even more livable space, with the real bedroom (not legally because there's no window) downstairs and potentially, another sleeping space on top and then storage. All that sleeping space would be great for when guests stay over.

I'm probably just dreaming...lol. Who knows if any of this will even be possible or if the Board would be fine with the renovations.

@theburkhardtgroup - I'm thinking a reeeeeeeeally low bed or just mattress on the floor... lol. It would be the literal picture of "crawling into bed"... lol. It'd be great to be able to split the lofted area into storage space and sleeping space.

I just want an extra sleeping space for when guests stay over. Historically, I've given up my room and crashed on the couch out of respect (and hospitality) for my guests. But I'm not a young graduate anymore and the thought of crashing on a couch for days is not very exciting. So, if I can create an additional sleeping space in the unit, that would be a blessing.

Like you said, pull-out couches don't cut it. A sleeping loft at least offers some separation and (hopefully), some privacy.

To be a legal "storage loft", the ceiling cannot exceed 5ft and the access must be by ladder or ship's ladder. Make it easy for an adult to walk up stairs and/or stand upright, and it becomes plain old "storage area" in DOB terms, which counts toward FAR whether or not anyone sleeps there, which means you may need a zoning variance on top of all the structural etc plan approvals.

Architects who've worked in downtown residential conversions will know how to steer around all of this. Just expect the process (and the $$ per sqft) to be more like a gut reno than like that time your buddy lofted a bed in his college dorm.

I like the Cotton Exchange building for small/efficiency apartments on the middle floors, particularly the floors that had laundry and balconies. Toured several back in 2020, and yes, the ones who had already bit the bullet to expand ceiling height (roughly 8ft->9.5ft iirc) felt considerably more attractive inside. Decent location, low maintenance relative to other downtown co-ops. I *wanted* to like the larger units on the upper floors but the layouts are just too weird -- the result of combining a hodgepodge of former executive suites. E.g. 23A finally sold after 6.5 years of steady chops: https://streeteasy.com/building/3-hanover-square-new_york/23a

And a view of the Beaver building -

I want to open a liquor store there.

@RichardBerg you've put the fear of God in me. The mention of a "gut reno" instantly made me giddy.

To paint a better image, there's already a 'room' there (3/4 wall partition, creating a windowless enclosure). I'm thinking now that it might be more useful to simply create a storage space under - so raise the 'room' space (after exposing the beams) and then create a massive storage area beneath it (5' height there would be a luxury). Does this make any difference in terms of DOB interpretation?

One of the reasons some older loft conversions have 8' ceilings is back when they were converted construction budgets were so low only having to put up one sheet of drywall made a difference.

> Does this make any difference in terms of DOB interpretation?

So long as the ceiling is low, it shouldn't count as new floor area. I don't think placing the storage area above vs below matters. But ask your architect -- raising the living space has its own issues with structural support, ADA compliance, and more.

Either way, it's the ceiling demo that should concern you more. When you say "expose the beams", I hear "hire abatement specialists to seal parts of the building behind plastic and walk around in space suits and hope the neighbors who abut the shared plenum spaces don't sue me."

@30yrs - So you're saying, there may be even more feet of space buried up there? That would be soooooo amazing!

@RichardBerg - Thanks. I'm just hoping for the best. I really am.

Don't let me discourage you; curiosity is good! Just saying, if you're gonna spend a million bucks, you can take the time for a little research...

StreetEasy will tell you when the structure was built; anything pre-1980 is very likely to have asbestos fireproofing on the beams (at minimum).

TitleVest will have key info from the time of conversion; any plan that was cheap at the time is very likely to have encased the ACM rather than remove it (if they did any work at all).

Bringing a tape measure into the stairwell will tell you how far apart the floor plates are. I found mine had 16ft in total, which tipped me toward "buy". I don't think the seller (a 25yr resident) knew this; the brokers and lawyers and inspectors supposedly handling "due diligence" on your potential purchase certainly won't.

Real estate is a volume business. One advantage of being a solo buyer, scoping out your one & only home, is that you can afford to dive deeper than the crowd.

I also like scrolling through the case history to skim every lawsuit the co-op has ever been party to. Your lawyer should find basic stuff like DOB violations, pending litigation, and shady board ongoings, but a deeper history of entanglements & complaints can help paint a fuller picture of what other shareholders might have faced over time.

Thanks @RichardBerg. These are awesome tips - especially the stairway bit. Makes sooooo much sense. Thank you!!!