Look at this, the agent based competition to my FSBO ad lies about the location.

Is your apartment in substantially better condition than the apartment four floors up? 5k a floor seems like a pretty small discount for light & views.

I get plenty of light and views. There is not a huge difference. All of you guys claim that FSBOs are not price competitive and I am showing you that I am price competitive. Admit it.

You still haven't said anything about the original intent of my post, which is that my competitor's apartment is listed incorrectly on the Times in order to bring in more traffic, by lying about the location.

Sure, I have seen "Sutton Place" listings at 47th and 3rd, and "Brooklyn Heights" listings in Downtown Brooklyn. These things are done routinely. I don't think they are necessarily trying to get more money; rather, I think it's done to get more attention.

This doesn't really bother me as much, because the buyers are free to check out the location prior to purchasing anyhow. By contrast, I still don't understand the system whereby it is completely legal for realtors to grossly and knowingly overestime the squarefootage... That just sounds SO unethical to me.

407. I have no problem with FSBO--in fact, I am no fan of the quality of work most brokers do. Certainly, one of the biggest headaches about the NYT real estate ads is the fudging on location. It makes it quite difficult to figure out what one is actually looking at. The agent's behavior is irritating but not uncommon.

Now, I don't think your price is uncompetitive because you are an FSBO; I just think it is uncompetitive. I think the broker's price is uncompetitive as well. In this market there are just very few buyers. If you want to get their attention you need an attention-grabbing price, and you don't have that. The maintenance on your apartment is high, and while it looks like a perfectly nice apartment with perfectly nice views, it is a cookie cutter, smallish, postwar one bedroom in a so-so location, hardly different from a thousand others currently on the market right now. And it has a very high maintenance.

If you have it on the market just in case someone wants to buy, then cool, hang out at that price and it is always possible (however unlikely) that someone will fall in love with your apartment and snap it up at that price. If you either need to sell or have a very strong inclination, slash it aggressively and get it off your hands.

Trying to get more attention by lying about the location of an apartment is also unethical. Just because it is routinely done does not mean it is right. The gross overestimating of square footage is also unethical. I quote the square footage number from my co-op offering plan. At least, I provide a verifiable source. All of my competitors routinely lie about the square footage number, putting me at a disadvantage with those buyers who are not skeptical.

No one buys an apartment because the broker tells them it is in one place when it's really somewhere else. It may be unethical, but it isn't the reason your apartment hasn't sold. Cut the price.

Following up on happyrenter's prior post, let's say for a moment that both apartments are priced right, and that four floors of elevation, a nicer kitchen and a good paint job are only worth $20K. Why would a buyer choose to do business with you, a random FSBO seller who isn't bound by any ethical code at all and who could turn out to be a total whack job, rather than a licensed realtor and the firm that stands behind her? The broker may turn out to be completely useless, but her services are, from the buyer's POV, free; and her firm's participation in the transaction at least gives the buyer some recourse if the transaction goes pear-shaped.

You seem to think you only need to be competitive with broker listings. I can tell you, as a potential buyer (and one who hates brokers as much as you do), that a FSBO would have to offer compellingly superior value for me to even consider it. And I don't think my opinion is unique.

407:

I've sold by FSBO before on multiple occasions (and in others, have elected for the use of a broker - it's a case-by-case call). It's my opinion that an FSBO can do as good (or better) a job of selling a place, but it does take a loy of work to do it really well, and it only makes good sense for me where the amount of money I'm saving is worth more to me than the time I spent to do all the work. It's just a question of balance (time vs. money), that's all.

As to the assertion of lying about your competitor's apartment, look - I just wouldn't worry about it. You have plenty to worry about selling your own joint. Any informed buyer in this market (and believe me, there are not many dummies looking to buy right now) will smell deceptive claims a mile a way. And yet, maybe your competitor WILL sell their place first - there's no guarantees here. As I said, you have plenty on your own to worry about. Keep going to lots of open houses in your area to check current comps and see how people have staged their places to learn what to do/what not to do, make sure your own FSBO website and NY Times web ad page look super slick, make sure the floorplan and pics you're using look gorgeous and well staged, make sure your unit is also well staged and spic and span - just keep your eye on your own ball right now....

People search for apartments based on location, neighborhood, and zip code so it does matter what the broker puts in the ad. I completely disagree with what you have said. It IS unethical to put in the wrong zip code. Thee is no "may be" about it.

Here is a counterexample. How much abuse would I receive on this board if I tried to sell my apartment as a fancy Park Avenue apartment at $100k more than I am asking? I would be rightly criticized for trying such a stunt.

The question at hand is not whether I have sold my place or not. The question at hand is about a fair and level playing field for all sellers and buyers based on how properties are listed. By the way, I have cut my price from when I originally listed and I feel I represent a good deal. You may disagree but that is how I feel.

407:

Let me add to west81st's very important comment. Going FSBO saves YOU money. What does it get the buyer? Nothing. You need to be passing those savings to the buyer if you want buyers to pay attention. Here's how I look at it: let's assume that the other unit is priced perfectly (as I said earlier, I actually think it is overpriced as well). If I'm a buyer evaluating these two apartments I figure this: better kitchen+better paint job+higher floor+professional broker=AT LEAST 10% purchase price difference.

Thanks Malraux, you give lots of good advice. I think the continually cleaning of the apartment is the biggest advantage and disadvantage of going FSBO, haha. Then again, no agent is going to clean my house before every open house!

West81st, haha, funny, you think agents are bound by ethics when they misrepresent property? What kind of ethics is that? Look, lawyers are hired by both sides to make sure the deal is legal, the contract is legit, and that the whole thing does not go pear shaped. The brokers are of little use after a price has been agreed upon by both parties.

Look, price is price is price. Just because some people will willingly pay a 6% transaction fee built into the price does not mean that everyone has to pay it and it does not mean that all FSBO properties should be discounted automatically by 6%.

What if brokers took a 50% commission. Would you expect me to slash my price by 50% if I sold on my own? Nope. So, we are arguing about the fair market price of an asset, that is the price agreed to my an individual buyer and seller at one moment in time.

I believe I can provide better service than the agents because I have actually live in the building and know far more about the property than any agent. My goodness, I even know the zip code!

407,

Look, if you think this is such an outrage why don't you call the NYTIMES and report fraudulent advertising to their ad sales department. I'd be glad if you did it, it is certainly an annoyance that so many of the ads have the wrong location.

But that is going to do nothing to get your apartment sold. You can keep ignoring the advice we are trying to give you, and your apartment can keep languishing on the market. You think that you represent a good value. Obviously the buyers disagree, or someone would be interested in buying your apartment. You have an average, postwar one bedroom apartment with no distinguishing features and a high maintenance, and you are trying to sell it in the worst real estate market since in this city since 1993. You have to think clearly.

407PAS, most people don't buy apartments without actually visiting them and seeing where they located. No one will be fooled by the neighborhood/zip code, except maybe Rufus who has never actually been to NYC.

Price is the issue, and I don't think a 6% discount would even begin to move the needle. Even ignoring the overall market, your apartment is overpriced relative to the apt 4 floors up. That apt has a nicer kitchen with higher end appliances. Plus, it has wooden floors. Are your floors linoleum or ceramic tile? It's hard to tell from the photos, but that would be a huge turnoff to many potential buyers.

407PAS: There seems to be very little point in conversing with you. I think perhaps you are too emotionally involved, too rigid in your opinions, and too scornful of dissent to see this situation from the point of view of a potential buyer. I wish you luck.

Nope, their appliances are not higher end. My $3800 Liebherr fridge screams out in protest. I think the quality of the appliances is similar. I think their apartment has the original junky parquet tiles installed by the developer. Those wood tiles squeak with every step and drove me crazy. My floor is made out of cork so it is quiet and warm on bare feet. Ceramic tile would be too hard, noisy, and unforgiving on the joints.

Their kitchen cabinets are newer but they appear to be the ugly ones from Home Depot. I am not impressed by them.

My ceiling had been replastered by me, something that has done wonders for the look of the place. I think that other apartment has the original popcorn ceilings, a horrible thing, in my opinion. It was a lot of work to replaster the ceiling, take my word for it.

In addition, I am leaving behind the six expensive French zinc planters on the balcony, the nice bistro table and two chairs on the balcony, AND the Nelson Pear lamp that hangs in the living room.

OK 407. You are arguing with people who are just trying to be helpful. It might behoove you to listen, think, and then (obviously) act as you see fit. If you think your apartment is the most incredible deal ever, then that's great and I hope you have buyers beating down your door.

If, as it appears, you do NOT have buyers expressing interest in your apartment, you might want to think about REAL reasons for that (lying brokers are not the real reason). Since you don't seem interested in hearing what those reasons might be, then fine, moving on.

fail.

Hmmmm, the people who are trying to be "helpful" counsel me to slash my price when I am already less than a competitive apartment. Of course, these people are probably agents who want to point out that brokers can always get you a better price than a FSBO listing. I have never said my apartment is the most incredible deal ever, those are your words. I said I am competitively priced, represent a good value, AND see a competititor's apartment that is listed under the WRONG zip code, in order to generate more traffic.

"Look, if you think this is such an outrage why don't you call the NYTIMES and report fraudulent advertising to their ad sales department. I'd be glad if you did it, it is certainly an annoyance that so many of the ads have the wrong location."

I would, but, you know, I am guessing that this thread will eventually cause that listing to be changed. Everybody is hooked together through a complicated series of wires, pullies, and ductwork. Just wait and see.

Sure, the market is bad but the market is bad for all sellers. If I can't get a decent price then I will stay. We have light and air, intangible things that are hard to get. I don't see inflation easing up that much and it would cost me a lot to rent similar or larger space.

407PAS - can you email/call me? I am talking to a few FSBOs and would love to ask you something. Nothing in regards to trying to get your listing, by the way.

BTW - the broker is trying to increase exposure, and get the listing to show up on search results in 3 neighborhoods instead of just one

Hey urbandigs,
Sure, I know why they are listing the apartment that way but it is still not fair or honest. To some people it is a small, unimportant point, but it is not insignificant to the person who tells the truth and sees it as an attempt at gaining an unfair advantage.

Anyway, you can email me on 407pas@gmail.com I will answer your question, depending on what it is...

i agree, this whole industry has many shady flaws.

407 - Here is how I would view your apartment if I was looking to buy:

- The high floor is nice and it looks like it gets good sun and has S & E views.

- The building is nice, but the location is so-so (not the most "neighborhoody" feel).

- The kitchen is a decent size, but the cabinets are blah and I would likely want/need to replace them.

- The living room is an okay size, but it is not showing well partly becasue of how it is staged. The wide piece of the couch juts out making the room look more narrow than it is and, while there is no clutter, it is also quite cold-looking (no color/wires and tv on a shelf)

- The BR has good closet space, but is a bit on the small-side.

- The BA is really nothing special and looks like a rental bathroom. I would need to put money into this room.

- The terrace is nice, but it is really small and some people (like myself) are not that comfortable on those little "bubble terraces" dangling out off the living room. It is not a huge space that you can hang out on and cook, etc. so you wouldn't get much leverage from having it.

- The maintenance is 65% deductable, but it is also $2.65/foot.

- The price is $519,000 which works out to be $830.40/square foot.

I would look at this and say $800/square foot sounds right which puts it at $500,000, but then I have to factor in that large maintenance payment that is only going to go up and be more difficult for me when I want to sell the place down the road. I would take off another $60,000 for that and put the price at $440,000.

This is just off the cuff from how I would look at things as a buyer (and how I did when I bought). I haven't been to the open house, but if my take on your pictures is wrong, then you should get some better pictures. It's a 625 square foot 1 BR in a so-so neighborhood. It's not going to work for everyone. The maintenance is painfully high and, while the deductable portion is nice, I still have to pay that out of pocket every month. It is a problematic number.

Just my thoughts. I hope they help and I wish you all the best of luck!

Hello Waverly,
I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post. I have read all of it. I will think about the issues that you have raised.

I do not think $440k is a fair price for the place, given the comps I have seen. If that is all the market will bring, then we will abide. If I am forced to that price in a few years, so be it, but I have to live somewhere in the meantime and I do not see any cheap deals on housing in Manhattan.

As for the maintenance, the number has not gone up in three years. The board refinanced the mortgage a while ago and has realized enough savings to keep the maintenance steady, in my opinion. Of course, I cannot guarantee anything about future maintenance increases, nobody can.

You don't need a Jumbo loan to buy my place, this is an advantage in this difficult lending environment.

407PAS: I haven't looked at your listing, so I can't comment on price, but keep fighting the good FSBO fight. The monopolistic broker industry doesn't have long to live in the Internet age, and the brokers know it. That's why they keep fighting you.

waverly makes a good point about maintenance, but is it really going to go up? You have access to the building's finances - is the interest rate on the current underlying mortgage high? When is the building able to reset the rate?

407PAS - Based on one of your recent posts it seems that you do not need to move and are unwilling to do so if you don't get your price. In that case, I would set a deadline and if you don't have any acceptable offers by that time, do yourself a favour and pull it off the market. In the short to medium term things are only going to get worse so once you've tested the market at the lowest price you're willing to accept, there's no need to keep going through the hassle of showing the place. If it's more space that you need, you may even consider renting it out if it doesn't sell and renting something bigger for yourself.

In terms of your original post regarding ethics, there is nothing shocking about what the broker did and anyone who is looking for a key to Gramercy Park will not come see your listing or the broker's so I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. I can argue that your claim that this is an "unbeatable location" could be misleading to someone who is not very familiar with NYC but all buyers have to do their own due diligence. Your real problem is not how the other apartment is listed but the fact that it is being offered at all and at a price very close to your "bottom" price.

You argue that the value of the apartment is what the buyer is willing to pay for it and while I agree, the seller needs to be willing to accept it as well. The seller of the apartment above you is willing to take less than you are when you take into consideration the commission he will have to pay.

The maintenance is going to go up, if for no other reason, energy costs and raises for doormen, supers, handymen and porters have to be given since they are union jobs. If you end up with a staff of 10-12 people it can get very expensive. If maintenance has been steady for 3 years I would think that an increase is due.

If I am a buyer I am not going to pay you any more thsan I feel I need to, especially in this market. If it doesn't sell or get you the number you want, you have the luxury of staying put and that is a good thing for you.

I also do think you are doing a good thing going the FSBO route and wish you the best!

I think the numbers should be accurate. The zip code is a well known number and should be factually reported by everyone. It is in the address of the apartment, after all!

One man's "Unbeatable Location" is another man's "Terrible Location", but I will take your advice to heart and tone down the "Unbeatable" part to something like "Great". I will speak with my copywriter.

I am not upset that the other apartment is on the market. I am happy that there is another unit on the market that is a similar comp, about as similar as you can get. It is a free market economy, people can ask what they feel a place is worth.

My "bottom price" is unknown and depends on what I had for breakfast that day. ;-)

I don't feel comfortable revealing the specific details of the refinancing done by our building. It is a little complicated and takes some explaining. Interested buyers can find this out through the "due diligence" process with their lawyers or I will provide such information to an interested person, after we have made some progress with discussions.

Just because the maintenance has been steady for three years does not necessarily mean an increase is due, especially since we saved a lot of money with our refinancing. You are jumping to a conclusion. Of course, cost pressures are everywhere, I do not deny that fact and I tell all prospective buyers that when I speak with them. One guy last week said he faced a 25% hike in his condo payment. Yikes!

energy costs are way down

UD - you are right about energy costs, but that was not the case at all for '07 and is always a factor in the maintenance cost for buildings going forward. The staff is expensive, plus any renovations or large capital projects. With a maintenance that size I would guess that they voted to refi the mortgage, use the money for capital projects and pass it on in the cost of the maintenance instead of doing an assessment.

Hello,
As far as capital improvements, with regards to the windows, for instance, the building had all of windows replaced a few years ago. This project was realized without any special assessments or any large maintenance increases. We have reserve funds in place for the large items, such as roof and elevators, etc.

I think the philosophy of the board is to hold the maintenance numbers as steady as possible, based on the fact that prices in this building are based on a certain maintenance level. A slashing of the maintenances would profit short-term sellers by forcing up prices at the possible detriment of long-term owners. This is a balancing act. I think the board has the best interests of the building in mind and I respect what they have done.

Here is something for people to talk about. I have heard the difference between condos and coops described in the following way:

"With a condo, you gain more control over your unit but lose control of the building. With coops, you lose some control of your unit but gain more control over the building"

Please discuss. As I go through life, I find myself leaning more towards cooperative ownership in terms of how it is able to maintain the housing stock, versus condominium ownership. The building-wide systems are expensive to replace and maintain and deserve to have the most resources devoted to heir upkeep.

There really is only one rule in life: "The costs must be paid". Each generation pays the costs so that the next generation has a place to live.

There is one point I would like to make with regards to FSBO sales. I continually hear from the broker community that FSBO prices should be automatically slashed by 6% because an owner selling on his own does not have to pay a commission.

Well, the argument is illogical because it assumes that FSBO listings have no associated costs. For instance, I would argue that my advertising costs are higher than the brokers because I am not able to benefit from the bulk advertising rates offered by the Times. Evidently, the rates offered by the Times to the real estate companies are so cheap as to not only allow them to keep their ads on for over a year but also allows them to steal FSBO ads and post them! NB: Please do not steal my ad, I will not respond to any inquiries from brokers.

In addition to advertising costs, I have to do all of my own photography and website design, prepare my apartment for the open houses, show the place, respond to questions, etc. These are all activities that cost me time (and therefore money).

As I have said before, in the end, price is price is price. If a buyer sees an apartment that he likes at a price he likes, he should buy it, regardless of whether it is agent-listed or FSBO.

If it were priced right you would need an ad in the Times for a few weeks. The cost of the photography and the website are minimal. We can all go to Blogspot and post a few images, just as we do to show off our families. For free. Your total cost is at most $1,000, or at your current price less than a fifth of one percent.

I have seen some broker ads on the Times for over a year. If you brokers would just price the properties correctly or get your sellers to agree to price the properties correctly, these ads would not have to stay on the Times for over a year.

My advertising costs from the Times are not cheap and, like I said, I do not get any discounts.

Now, you claim my costs are minimal but I disagree, as my time and effort is worth money. I maintain that all of that broker commission money goes to huge advertising budgets, lots of "free" food at real estate offices, and huge paychecks for a few brokers. I am sorry but the real estate industry's percentage-based commission structure takes too much money out of my pocket without providing me with the services I need.

So, I will stay on the market as long as it takes to get a deal, just like the agents do.

407,

I don't like dealing with brokers either, but your anger is clouding your judgment. It is not "agents" who stay on the market. It is sellers. The brokers give advice, market the apartment, field offers, etc. but it is the seller who has the say as to what price to offer and how long to leave it on the market. I love that you are going FSBO, I think broker commissions are way out of scale, and I think the whole industry should be reformed. But your concern here should be selling your apartment, not pursuing a vendetta against brokers. There is no reason to waste your money or time constantly cleaning and restaging your apartment, running ads, and planning open houses, if no one is interested in the place at your price. Since you say you don't need to sell, and would not sell at the price most of us think you might (might, in this market, being the operative word) be able to get, at some point you need to consider pulling it off the market.

You misread my tone when you think I am angry or have a vendetta against brokers. I know tone is often impossible to convey in these posts. I do not have a vendetta against agents. I wish them luck in selling their properties, if they do it honestly.

I mentioned sellers in my post so I am aware that sellers keep properties on the market for a long time at unrealistic prices. Perhaps sellers do this because they are facing the high transaction cost of 6%! In a downward market, that 6% may mean the difference between a seller making a profit on the sale or taking a loss, and that is something the real estate industry will have to deal with going forward.

Well, you just found a good reason to lower the price of your apartment: others are priced unrealistically because of transaction costs! So you need to be priced well below those overpriced units to generate interest in your place.

Haha, you guys will try to beat me into the ground on price, no matter what, so you can say that an agent will always bring you a better price. I'm not falling for that line.

Some units are overpriced and some are not. Some units represent a good deal even with the 6% commission and some units do not. It is all over the map. A buyer has to decide for themselves what a unit is worth to them.

I don't think an agent would bring a better price.

I think both you and most agents are deluded. Over a half a million, plus close to $1,700 per month in maintenance, for a generic one bedroom in a mediocre location? Oh, but the refrigerator! If it's not a Sub Zero, it's the fat kid on the playground, and no one cares.

It should be priced under 300k.

It looks like buyers are deciding that your unit is not worth your asking price. Just because you are priced $20k below another apartment (that is also not selling) in your building does not make it a deal...

You guys provide the best entertainment value of any website on the internet and it is all free! ;-)

Please show me a one bedroom apartment in my neighborhood for under $300k. Post a link. I am waiting for your reply.

What makes my apartment a nice place to live is the light and air that you get. Corner one bedrooms are wonderful to live in because you get light from two sides, which is more pleasing to the eye and less harsh than light from one side. Human beings are phototropic, meaning they are attracted to light, just like plants. Nobody likes to live in a dark hole, even in a big dark hole.

Having two exposures gives you a lot of air flow, especially because I have windows in every room. I see a lot of value is what you disparage as "generic". Corner one bedrooms are not all that common, after all, how many corners does each building have?

I am not certain I can find a better place even if I spend a lot more money. Light and air are in short supply in the city and are expensive, even though these things are intangible.

The location is quite convenient and centrally located.

As for picking on my fridge. You need to accept the fact that SubZero has become some sort of real estate agent's mantra for quality, not necessarily supported by objective facts. I could point you at lots of maintenance horror stories related to SubZero.

Liebherr, a German company, builds large pieces of construction equipment. They have invested a lot of money in building a refrigerator factory in Europe. Just because they are not as well known in the US does not mean they do not build a quality product. We have been happy with this fridge, and, if I could, I would take it with me.

And the maintenance is $1655.(approximately 65% deductible) Numbers matter.

I'm glad you see a lot of value in your apartment - really, I do. I'm just suggesting that others don't (at least at your listing price). And unfortunately, it's others that will determine the price at which your apartment will sell. Who cares if there aren't any 1-bedrooms listed under $300k. Are any of them selling?

Actually, we have gotten a lot of good responses from the people who have seen our apartment. I am confident that somebody will see the light. ;-)

Any offers? I'm not being flip - would be interesting to hear the bid/ask differential...

14B closed for 475k in late July and 23B closed for 455k in July of 2006. Do you think the economic climate now is any better than it was then?

Yep. Sorry, I'm not providing info on spreads.

I do not see a wholesale rollback to 2006 prices for all classes of property across the board in Manhattan, do you? Please tell all of your broker friends (and their sellers) to roll back to 2006 prices by 4:00pm today and we can talk.

Other sales information:
02/11/2008 #16B $525,000
07/22/2008 #8B $515,000

I know the history behind the sale of #14B and it was a below market inside deal and is not a valid comp.

407, you're crazy. You think prices have not gone down since last winter or this summer? My impression is that sales (rather than asking prices) are at about 2005 levels right now, if not lower. I'm not a broker, don't have broker friends, and don't like brokers. NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH BROKERS. If you are determined to keep your price too high because some other people are doing the same, then fine, go for it.

I would also say that if you love your apartment as much as you claim you do, and you don't think you can find as nice a place, then for God's Sake don't sell it. That's the best position to be in: to have an apartment that you value more highly than the market. It means that you are getting greater economic benefit from the apartment than you are suffering economic loss for the cost of living there. You love where you live, stay put.

You may be right, I may be crazy. Sorry to channel Billy Joel, I'm not really that big a fan, but that is the line that popped into my head.

Anyways, well, actual sales data lags the market, no? Who knows where we're at? I think we're all trying to figure it out, in real-time.

Ok, so, I will find a listing I want and work the seller over to get him to accept a price from 2005. If he drops to 2005 then so will I. If not, I won't. Deal? How about the return of the contingent contract? We'll call it the "2005 Price Contingent Contract" to get the whole market moving again. Good luck with this idea. ;-)

So, I do love my place and everything I said about it reflects how I feel but my wife has her heart set on being within easy running distance of Central Park on the Upper West Side. I see the appeal of a move up there but I also see the difficulty of replicating some of the features of my current apartment, namely light and air. A little extra space would be nice, as well. There it is.

I see a lot of units I like ASKING 2005 prices (or below 2005 prices), but I still think they are overpriced considering the changes that have taken place. I don't know what sort of units you like, but I know my tastes are not that idiosyncratic.

407Pas,

No offense, but the broker lsited apartment in your building has a much nicer kitchen than you do and I think a lot of people would be willing to pay an extra $20,000 for it.

While both apartments have nice views, it seems ot me that 407pas' kitchen and bathroom are a bit outdated. Unfortunately, the broker failed to include a picture of the bathroom in the more epxensive unit so we do not know if their bathroom has been updated or if it is the original.

My advice would be to try to pose as a buyer in order to get into the apartment. If the kitchen AND bathroom have been updated, then you may need to lower your asking price to $499,000 in order to compete.

"In addition, I am leaving behind the six expensive French zinc planters on the balcony, the nice bistro table and two chairs on the balcony, AND the Nelson Pear lamp that hangs in the living room."

Unfortunately, your used furniture is not going to add a single dime to your property value.

I have looked at many apartments on the Upper West Side and I do not see a glut of units priced at 2005 levels. Post a few links here of what you have seen at that price level. So, find me a two bedroom unit, in an elevator building, with doorman, with good light and air, with windows in the kitchen and 2(or 1.5) bathrooms, one or two blocks from Central Park, between 81st and 96th, with maintenance around $1000-1200 a month, that is at 2005 price levels.

I do not think their kitchen is worth an extra $20,000 to be honest. I think you're looking at cheap cabinets from Home Depot but I have not seen them up close. I have a moral problem with wasting people's time when I have no intention of buying so I do not look at other units like mine. I am pretty sure the bathroom is original but I do not know for sure.

You know, there is no exact algorithm for the price of an apartment based on what has been updated or has not been updated or what you consider dated or not dated. My unit is the lowest priced one bedroom in the building, out of the three units that are currently on the market. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a unit "Under Contract" and have wished for a similar unit in the same building, only to find that there are no similar units for sale in that building. There can be two buyers in the world who want the same kind of apartment and only one of them will win.

Ok, I know that the furnishings I am leaving behind will not increase the property value by a dime. I am making a kind gesture to the next owner because those furnishings fit the space. The white table and two stools in the kitchen are also staying with the apartment, along with the shelf on the wall. I had someone write to me to find out where the table and stools could be purchased as they were exactly what they had been searching for for a long time.

Maybe, just maybe, someone will buy the apartment, plant beautiful flowers in the planters on the balcony in the southern light, cook enjoyable meals in the kitchen using the nice appliances, and be happy in the space and not think every moment that they got ripped off with their purchase. My wife and I have been happy in the apartment. The sunlight has never failed to cheer us up when we are down.

Just curious, I have noticed this building in the past... Why is the maintenance so high?
Is there a landlease? Or is just that the coop was saddled with a huge mortgage ?

407,

Sorry, I'm not going to dedicate myself to finding you an apartment. Among the apartments I follow, there is major decline taking place. If you think the market is strong and getting stronger, stick with your price.

By the way, I find it highly, highly ironic that you are now insisting on a maintenance below 1,200 a month for a much bigger apartment, when you refuse to acknowledge that the very high maintenance on your one bedroom is a liability.

Yes, the building got saddled with a large mortgage, that is why you see the higher than normal tax deductibility number. The prices in this building have been set based on relatively high maintenance numbers for a long time now. This is not a new phenomenon. As a matter of fact, our maintenance has not gone up in the last three years and has been quite steady for a long time. As other maintenances in the city have gone up and the gap between our building and other buildings has narrowed, the value of the apartments in our building has gone up.

Our building represents a tradeoff between a lower purchase price and a higher maintenance (and higher deductibility), versus a higher purchase price and a lower maintenance (and lower deductibility).

I have a pet theory that everyone is paying the same price but that the costs are hidden in different ways but I know people will not agree with me. I realize that there are people who pay less per square foot to live in Manhattan. It is also true that a lot of people pay more per square foot to live on the island.

407PAS: No problem getting a 2/1 on the UWS for a 2005 price. What's your budget?

I hope you're not trying to find a buyer in this site because the consensus looks like no one here will buy it at that price. Even more sobering, is that nobody here seems to be interested and it would not matter even if you lower your price.

Good luck.

There aren't any buyers on this site, just brokers and critics! I come here for the support and the camaraderie.

I don't deny that my maintenance number is an issue but I maintain that my price takes the higher maintenance number into account, as it should. I could show you some $1500-2000 maintenance figures on million dollar+ apartments, and not impressive apartments at that. I am not alone in having maintenance issues.

Ok, happyrenter, I thought you wanted to hear my requirements. I don't expect you to find an apartment for me. Trust me, my wife and I have looked at hundreds of listings. Ok, post any 2005 priced property, just one link for us to look at, in order to bolster your case.

Well, West81st, are you a broker? ;-) We're not looking to align ourselves with a broker at this time. I fear that you always look at high prices properties, higher than we're willing to go, from what I gather by reading your previous posts.

I will go back through all of the apartments we have looked at, figure out what is still on the market, and see if the current price is comparable to a 2005 price. I highly doubt it. Unfortunately, I will not have time to do this for a while.

And look, I have run the numbers and I am looking at a huge incremental cost to buy one more room. Why? Because people with children drive up the cost of two bedroom units in the city so that the curve is in no way continuous with the one bedroom curve. I am merely stating a well-known fact.

All this back and fourth over a zip code. Forget it 407 in my opinion your listing will not sell in this market not with an almost $1700 dollar a month maintenance. I am a broker and I would not waste my time or money with either listing and would advise a buyer to stay away. In a red hot market you can make lemons into lemonade but those days are over-That maintenance is a big red flag,$830 dollars a square foot might be in the ballpark if the maintenance was more in-line. I have been a broker in Manhattan for 16 years and recently struck out on my own offering discounted fees on rentals-Big Success! I am going to be dipping my toe back into to sales charging 3-4% commissions(co-brokes) and as little as 1% on direct sales. selling an apartment in the city is no easy task for anyone it takes a lot of time, patience and skill especially in a buyers market.I sincerely wish you the best of luck but you have a real up-hill battle ahead of you.

I am not criticizing children, by the way, I love children. I am just saying that there are all sorts of price pressures in this city. For instance:

* We have tons of rent stabilized apartments that are priced way below market rates and never come on the market.

* We have lots of new high-priced condos that are much more expensive than my unit, from what I have seen, and usually smaller than my place, with lots of unknowns with regards to costs going forward.

* Now, we appear to have a blockage in the real estate pipeline. We have people in two bedrooms who have growing families but cannot move to the suburbs, people in one bedrooms who cannot move up to two bedrooms, people in studios who cannot move into one bedrooms, and people in rental apartments who cannot buy studios.

You would think that the sellers would have a distinct advantage but the lending environment is all messed up so I doubt if that is the case. Everything is stuck. How do you guys propose to get it unstuck?

By the way, I have yet to see a single comp posting in my neighborhood from any of the people on this list that convincingly beats my place. I have been beaten with words on numerous occasions but never with an actual listing. I found an apartment that I thought was better than mine, and, you know what, it sold. It was a pretty close comp, in many respects.

I have outdoor space, which is not that common, and not desired by some people, but a wonderful thing for the right buyer!

The zip code fight was left behind about twenty five posts ago. We're having a freewheeling discussion about a lot of other topics.

Well, Mr. Burkhardt, I suppose I could tell every person I meet to avoid dealing with any of your listings but would that be fair? Every deal is a deal for someone and like I said, nobody has beaten me with a real comp yet, all just words. I would hope that people would just not take your advice but would do their own research and hire a lawyer to perform "due diligence" on any potential purchase.

Funny, I have rented an apartment in another city as an owner for eight years and have never once used a broker. You're lucky that you can make a living doing that in this city.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/262164-coop-300-east-54th-street-sutton-place-new-york

More expensive, but maintenance, at $880 per month, is significantly less, and sufficiently offsets the higher purchase price. Kitchen is nice, as is the overall condition of the apartment. Layout and size are similar.

Location is roughly comparable. Not exactly a residential area, nor is it what is typically considered to be prime.

Building has both a health club and a pool. We call them "amenities."

This took me two and one third of a minute to find.

Given your maintenance these are all significantly cheaper than yours is. Would every buyer prefer every one of these? No. And I think these are overpriced as well (And hence not selling). But they show your price is uncompetitive.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/212067-coop-7-park-avenue-murray-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/361362-coop-7-park-avenue-murray-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365499-coop-139-east-33rd-street-kips-bay-new-york

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/345942-coop-245-east-25th-street-kips-bay-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/361710-coop-157-e18th-gramercy-park-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/356209-301-east-22nd-street-gramercy-park-new-york

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/342695-coop-137-east-36th-street-murray-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/356914-coop-325-east-41st-street-murray-hill-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/346047-coop-130-east-18th-street-gramercy-park-new-york

sellings costs are a few grands at best -- lower floor is up to $10K per floor. You are not trying to be competitive -- you are trying to keep as much for yourself as possible. Which is fine. But own it.

As for the Sutton Place place, that maintenance looks too low, is it the truth or is there some kind of abatement in place? It is not a bad comp though it is $80k more expensive, That place is a long way from the subway and I am on top of the subway. No windows in the kitchen and bath so that is a non-starter for me. I call that smelly. Pool is a nice feature. Not a bad comp. Thanks for being the first to actually post something factual.

sorry 407PAS, but you got an uphill battle selling with that kind of maintenance. $1,600 a month is what most people would expect to pay for a 2 bedroom, not a 1 bedroom.

407 here's some advice: Take the apartment off the market- November, December are dead and on top of the seasonal challenge the market is in the toilet along with the economy. As it sits in the Times and other places on the web it grows stale. Come January price it 5-10% below anything similar within your "neighborhood/building", offer to pay the maintenance for 6 months preferably the first year. Hire a professional stager to come in and make some suggestions and agree to pay a buyers broker a 2-2.5% commission and get participation from the over 8,000 brokers working in the City. Buyers work with brokers almost 99% of the time, so don't cut off your nose to spite your face as they say. You have to face the reality that the maintenance is like running a race with a 100 pound weight around your neck. I will ignore the snide remark about making a living in another city since I do live in Manhattan. Best of luck.

Hello happyrenter,
Thank you for taking the time to post those comps. I don't feel that any of them crush me, they may be fairly close to me in terms of price/value/size/location, and hey, that's fine. I still think I'm in the game and pretty even with those places, and not uncompetitive. I think I offer a few advantages, even with my higher maintenance (and lower price).

The lack of windows in the bathrooms and kitchens of many (all?) of the apartments you have shown me is a sham perpetrated by architects, developers, and builders who appear to have never thought about how people actually live! Cooking and bathroom smells must have a way of escaping, it is a simple fact and yet, one that is ignored by so many people. Of course, cost pressures cause the elimination of those windows, I know that.

I think my place has better light and air than the places you listed. Here is a deep thought. Having two exposures, like in my apartment, provides cross ventilation, a natural way of keeping your home cool! My wife and I actually live without air conditioning, although we have it, of course. We can survive without AC, even though it can be difficult at times, because of the airflow.

And yes, I have lived in an apartment without windows in the kitchen and bathroom and I would never do it again.

Dear Mr. Burkhardt,
My remark was not snide, it was a statement of fact. There are lots of service jobs that exist in New York that do not exist in the rest of the country. The occupation of dogwalker springs to mind. Most people in this country cannot afford to pay for a lot of extra services, so, they do the work themselves. What an amazing concept.

You advice is not helpful. I do not need to hire a professional stager, as our place shows wonderfully. We have gotten a lot of good comments from the people who have seen our apartment. Our listing was chosen by the editors of Apartment Therapy, an online design site, based on what we tried to do with the space.

Maybe you should face that fact that every time you (or another broker) asks me to make another price cut or pay somebody else for work, that you eliminate any possibility that I would hire a broker to market my home. Brokers, all 8000 of you, are going to face a terrible squeeze on your profit margins as we go forward, based on a declining market. More people are going to choose to sell their places on their own in order to try to hold on to some profit. Face it. I am only the messenger.

I guess I have trouble with real estate agents in New York City, specifically, based on one simple fact. Real estate agents in New York do not negotiate the contract between the buyer and the seller, unlike real estate agents in the rest of the country. In New York City, you have to hire a lawyer from day one to prepare the contract, at the cost of $2500-3000. If a buyer is smart enough to earn the money to afford a coop, they should be smart enough to prepare a board package, so don't go there.

So, sellers are faced with paying an exorbitant fee of 6% of the sales price (!) for very little service from their real estate agents. It is a hard fact but there it is. There are lots of unattached buyers, by the way, I speak to them all the time. I would hope that more and more buyers would realize the advantage of working without a broker so that they can make up their own mind about properties and not be led around by the nose. Please do not try to convince me that buyer's brokers work for the buyer, I stopped believing that lie twenty five years ago.

I will not be pulling my property off of the market, haha, that is exactly what all of you brokers want. You want the FSBOs to disappear. Guess what, we're not going away so get used to it. I'll be there, competing for buyers with all of the rest of you guys. It is a Free Market Economy and a person has the right to sell his asset in any way he sees fit. You brokers tend to forget that the owners actually OWN the assets. You brokers don't own anything.

By the way, I think the SkyHouse condo thing you have listed on your website is a 55 story albatross hanging around your neck. What a hideous building. That building forever ruined the block and proved to me that the "representatives" of god are only interested in the almighty dollar. I want you to demonstrate to me that you will sell me an apartment in that building that costs less per square foot than my unit. You can't do it unless you use some tricky tax abatement thing and I still doubt it. It doesn't matter, I would never buy into that building in a million years.

407 here's some advice: Take the apartment off the market- November, December are dead and on top of the seasonal challenge the market is in the toilet along with the economy. As it sits in the Times and other places on the web it grows stale. Come January price it 5-10% below anything similar within your "neighborhood/building", offer to pay the maintenance for 6 months preferably the first year. Hire a professional stager to come in and make some suggestions and agree to pay a buyers broker a 2-2.5% commission and get participation from the over 8,000 brokers working in the City. Buyers work with brokers almost 99% of the time, so don't cut off your nose to spite your face as they say. You have to face the reality that the maintenance is like running a race with a 100 pound weight around your neck. I will ignore the snide remark about making a living in another city since I do live in Manhattan. Best of luck.

Dear Mr. Burkhardt,
My remark was not snide, it was a statement of fact. There are lots of service jobs that exist in New York that do not exist in the rest of the country. The occupation of dogwalker springs to mind. Most people in this country cannot afford to pay for a lot of extra services, so, they do the work themselves. What an amazing concept.

You advice is not helpful. I do not need to hire a professional stager, as our place shows wonderfully. We have gotten a lot of good comments from the people who have seen our apartment. Our listing was chosen by the editors of Apartment Therapy, an online design site, based on what we tried to do with the space.

Maybe you should face that fact that every time you (or another broker) asks me to make another price cut or pay somebody else for work, that you eliminate any possibility that I would hire a broker to market my home. Brokers, all 8000 of you, are going to face a terrible squeeze on your profit margins as we go forward, based on a declining market. More people are going to choose to sell their places on their own in order to try to hold on to some profit. Face it. I am only the messenger.

I guess I have trouble with real estate agents in New York City, specifically, based on one simple fact. Real estate agents in New York do not negotiate the contract between the buyer and the seller, unlike real estate agents in the rest of the country. In New York City, you have to hire a lawyer from day one to prepare the contract, at the cost of $2500-3000. If a buyer is smart enough to earn the money to afford a coop, they should be smart enough to prepare a board package, so don't go there.

So, sellers are faced with paying an exorbitant fee of 6% of the sales price (!) for very little service from their real estate agents. It is a hard fact but there it is. There are lots of unattached buyers, by the way, I speak to them all the time. I would hope that more and more buyers would realize the advantage of working without a broker so that they can make up their own mind about properties and not be led around by the nose. Please do not try to convince me that buyer's brokers work for the buyer, I stopped believing that lie twenty five years ago.

I will not be pulling my property off of the market, haha, that is exactly what all of you brokers want. You want the FSBOs to disappear. Guess what, we're not going away so get used to it. I'll be there, competing for buyers with all of the rest of you guys. It is a Free Market Economy and a person has the right to sell his asset in any way he sees fit. You brokers tend to forget that the owners actually OWN the assets. You brokers don't own anything.

By the way, I think the SkyHouse condo thing you have listed on your website is a 55 story albatross hanging around your neck. What a hideous building. That building forever ruined the block and proved to me that the "representatives" of god are only interested in the almighty dollar. I want you to demonstrate to me that you will sell me an apartment in that building that costs less per square foot than my unit. You can't do it unless you use some tricky tax abatement thing and I still doubt it. It doesn't matter, I would never buy into that building in a million years.

407 here's some advice: Take the apartment off the market- November, December are dead and on top of the seasonal challenge the market is in the toilet along with the economy. As it sits in the Times and other places on the web it grows stale. Come January price it 5-10% below anything similar within your "neighborhood/building", offer to pay the maintenance for 6 months preferably the first year. Hire a professional stager to come in and make some suggestions and agree to pay a buyers broker a 2-2.5% commission and get participation from the over 8,000 brokers working in the City. Buyers work with brokers almost 99% of the time, so don't cut off your nose to spite your face as they say. You have to face the reality that the maintenance is like running a race with a 100 pound weight around your neck. I will ignore the snide remark about making a living in another city since I do live in Manhattan. Best of luck.

Dear Mr. Burkhardt,
My remark was not snide, it was a statement of fact. There are lots of service jobs that exist in New York that do not exist in the rest of the country. The occupation of dogwalker springs to mind. Most people in this country cannot afford to pay for a lot of extra services, so, they do the work themselves. What an amazing concept.

You advice is not helpful. I do not need to hire a professional stager, as our place shows wonderfully. We have gotten a lot of good comments from the people who have seen our apartment. Our listing was chosen by the editors of Apartment Therapy, an online design site, based on what we tried to do with the space.

Maybe you should face that fact that every time you (or another broker) asks me to make another price cut or pay somebody else for work, that you eliminate any possibility that I would hire a broker to market my home. Brokers, all 8000 of you, are going to face a terrible squeeze on your profit margins as we go forward, based on a declining market. More people are going to choose to sell their places on their own in order to try to hold on to some profit. Face it. I am only the messenger.

I guess I have trouble with real estate agents in New York City, specifically, based on one simple fact. Real estate agents in New York do not negotiate the contract between the buyer and the seller, unlike real estate agents in the rest of the country. In New York City, you have to hire a lawyer from day one to prepare the contract, at the cost of $2500-3000. If a buyer is smart enough to earn the money to afford a coop, they should be smart enough to prepare a board package, so don't go there.

So, sellers are faced with paying an exorbitant fee of 6% of the sales price (!) for very little service from their real estate agents. It is a hard fact but there it is. There are lots of unattached buyers, by the way, I speak to them all the time. I would hope that more and more buyers would realize the advantage of working without a broker so that they can make up their own mind about properties and not be led around by the nose. Please do not try to convince me that buyer's brokers work for the buyer, I stopped believing that lie twenty five years ago.

I will not be pulling my property off of the market, haha, that is exactly what all of you brokers want. You want the FSBOs to disappear. Guess what, we're not going away so get used to it. I'll be there, competing for buyers with all of the rest of you guys. It is a Free Market Economy and a person has the right to sell his asset in any way he sees fit. You brokers tend to forget that the owners actually OWN the assets. You brokers don't own anything.

By the way, I think the SkyHouse condo thing you have listed on your website is a 55 story albatross hanging around your neck. What a hideous building. That building forever ruined the block and proved to me that the "representatives" of god are only interested in the almighty dollar. I want you to demonstrate to me that you will sell me an apartment in that building that costs less per square foot than my unit. You can't do it unless you use some tricky tax abatement thing and I still doubt it. It doesn't matter, I would never buy into that building in a million years.

407 here's some advice: Take the apartment off the market- November, December are dead and on top of the seasonal challenge the market is in the toilet along with the economy. As it sits in the Times and other places on the web it grows stale. Come January price it 5-10% below anything similar within your "neighborhood/building", offer to pay the maintenance for 6 months preferably the first year. Hire a professional stager to come in and make some suggestions and agree to pay a buyers broker a 2-2.5% commission and get participation from the over 8,000 brokers working in the City. Buyers work with brokers almost 99% of the time, so don't cut off your nose to spite your face as they say. You have to face the reality that the maintenance is like running a race with a 100 pound weight around your neck. I will ignore the snide remark about making a living in another city since I do live in Manhattan. Best of luck.

This is with response to 407pas.. the unethical aspect of overestimating the square footage of an apartment... I am unfortunately dealing with that the ad said 650 sq feet, and the bank appraised it as 585 is it only unethical not illegal... to me it is a misleading ad.

407 --

Notice that I didn't pitch you because I don't pitch FSBOs -- my feeling is indeed that it's your money and that you should do with it as you see fit, and if you don't want to pay a real estate agent with it, God bless. Your apartment looks terrific and I'm sure it will sell. I wish my sellers could all do as good a job as you did presenting their apartments.

That having been said, when you talk to brokers, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Burkhardt's tip that December is usually slow isn't crazy.

Typically, there are fewer buyers in the market because people get tied up with the holidays, and buyers who rely on bonus compensation (there are still some left) are waiting till the new year to get their checks.

Notice that I'm NOT advocating that you pull your listing because December is traditionally slow -- you might get some strategic mileage out of being on the market when your competition isn't.

I'm also NOT getting into any other bit of the exchange between you two -- (I've got no dog in this fight), just weighing in that I too believe this December will probably be slow because it's traditionally slow.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Dear Writer,
You will have to speak to your lawyer. I don't know the answer to your question. I would like to see square footage numbers listed with some source, like the way I quote my co-op offering plan but there is a lot of fudging with that number. A friend of mine was looking at office space for his wife's company and he found 20-30% discrepancies in the square footage numbers when he measured on his own! It was important for them to get an accurate square footage number to accommodate employees so the whole thing was a big hassle.

Administrator: Please remove two out of the three duplicate postings. I hit the reply button once! Also, while you are at it, please remove Mr. Burkhardt's comments from the end of my post, I forgot to remove them before I hit the Reply button.

I was just trying to be helpful, you do learn something about real estate after over 15 years in the business and as I stated I have no interest in your property. You really just sound bitter and it will be pointless to continue this conversation with you as you appear to know it all. Some people choose to work with brokers some don't, no big deal really as it's a very big city and there's room for many different points of view.I sincerely do not wish you harm but you seem to take some perverse pleasure in seeing others suffer by way of losing there means of income.

Best,

Keith

Dear Keith,
I am sorry if I sound bitter but it is a little hard to see how you are being helpful when the cure you are prescribing would cost me approximately $50,000. That's real money to me and medicine that I have a hard time swallowing.

I am not taking pleasure in seeing others suffer by losing their incomes but you are also talking about forcing some people to take a loss on their homes in order to pay your commission. Those people are hurting too. I don't have an answer for the problems presented by this situation.

I do not know everything but everything I have written about has been learned through my experiences over the last twenty five years in buying and selling real estate. I'm no real estate mogul but I have been through the mill a few times.

Yes, it is a big city and there is room for lots of different people with different viewpoints, I agree. I honestly wish everyone luck with selling their properties. It is never easy to sell, especially in these times. Most people will not be willing to put up with the work involved in selling so there will always be room for brokers.

================

Hello front_porch,
Thanks for your kind words with regards to my listing. We worked hard at trying to get the place prepared for sale.

Yes, I am sure you are correct that December will be a slow month. You never know though so I will probably hang on.

Here is an interesting observation. I am willing to answer questions about my property when I never see other sellers respond to questions about their properties. Brokers use the technique of divide and conquer in working over both the buyer and the seller in order to try to get a deal set up.

Of course, as a buyer, I am continually frustrated by agents who do not know much about the properties they are marketing. Of course, I am never allowed to discuss anything with the seller so there is a lot of mistrust and misinformation (or lack of information) in the process.

I realize that sellers never want anything negative revealed about their properties so they remain mum and hire agents who don't know much in order to get the property sold. Yes, it is up to the buyer to hire an attorney to perform "due diligence" and figure out the particulars regarding the apartment.

With all this said, I have tried to be as honest as possible when writing about my property. I actually want to sell it someone who is happy with the place and who will enjoy living in it. There are no perfect apartments, finding a place in Manhattan always involves tradeoffs.

"sellings costs are a few grands at best -- lower floor is up to $10K per floor. You are not trying to be competitive -- you are trying to keep as much for yourself as possible. Which is fine. But own it."

You must realize that claiming my costs are only a few grand does not help bolster the case for a full service brokerage listing of my apartment. So, the other $28,000 worth of commission on my place goes where? No, I do not think we are looking at $10k price differentials in my building.

Maybe you should think about the profit margins realized by these real estate companies before picking on me so much about trying to keep as much as possible for myself. I have to be competitive in order to sell, the market forces me to be competitive.

Corcoran's glossy magazine of properties that fell out of my Times this morning reminded me of how much profit there is in the real estate biz. Even with targeted marketing, that magazine must still be expensive to produce. I can't afford that kind of advertising. I have never found that magazine to be useful. It is full of ultra high-end properties and a few reasonably priced properties that are long gone by the time you get the magazine. What a waste of trees.

407PAS - Here's an example of a decent UWS 2BR for a 2005 price. 2166 Broadway #5F was reduced to $854K today:
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/1033860
#4F sold for $899K in 2005. Not sure about the condition comparison. #5F looks fine, so the comp is probably valid. It looks as though #5F was initially priced with #4F as a benchmark, at $899K:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/351624-coop-2166-broadway-upper-west-side-new-york

Maintenance at 2166 runs a little high, but still below what you're accustomed to.

And no, I'm not a broker. Not even in the business. Just a citizen who knows the neighborhood.

Good luck.

Hello West81st,
Thanks for the listing. My wife and I studied that apartment. I admit that some listings are back at 2005 levels even if the market is not back there as a whole. Unfortunately, I am sure the listing I desperately want is not at a 2005 price point!

Well, this apartment has kind of a strange layout, to be honest with you. I do not know the history of this building or how this apartment was cobbled together. No windows in the kitchen or either of the two bathrooms causes issues with me. Northern light, which is steady and even, nice for a photographer but not so warm and inviting as south and east. I would worry about street noise being on the fifth floor. The living room is squarish and funny, although that dining area is nice but we do not dig open kitchens, the mess from cooking meals is better left hidden in a kitchen. My wife cooks every night so this is important for us. The maintenance is a little high, like you said, but I have some tolerance for higher maintenance based on price.

Somehow the apartment does not press all of my buttons. That is just my take. I love looking at listings and you are certainly getting warmer as far as my requirements! ;-) We could be neighbors some day. If you see something that really nails my requirements, feel free to email it to me directly! ;-) I might or might not have seen it already.

I think the broker is smart! She put it in more than one area...so it has more exposure. When someone then sees the address they can then decide if they want to go see it or not, but it the buyers dont know its out there then they cant decide that they dont want to see it.
Smart marketing if you ask me!

The broker typed in the wrong zip code in order to get the property to show up in more than one area. It is a fundamental misrepresentation of the property, in my opinion. If the broker cannot speak truthfully about the address, why would I trust her to speak truthfully about other aspects of the apartment? I think she damages her reputation more by doing this than she gains by being honest.

It seems pretty obvious that this was done intentionally. Either that, or it is one of the most bizarre typos I have ever seen. 10016 somehow got transposed to 10003. Seems highly unlikely.

I have qualms about doing things like this, it is just the way I am. I like to sleep at night and I am a bit of a stickler about numbers. If I cannot sell the apartment by listing the correct zip code then I will not sell the apartment.

I have faced all sorts of little moral dilemmas with regards to listing my property. After some of you people criticized our bathroom claiming it was not nice enough, my wife had the thought that we should remove the photograph of the bathroom from the ad. I resisted, saying that the bathroom photograph showed that we have a window (important) and that we should remain truthful and not lie by omission. We show all rooms of the apartment, some with two shots.

I remember how we raced up to the Upper West Side to see an apartment that we thought would finally be THE ONE only to see the most disappointing kitchen in the world, straight out of 1925. Absolutely horrible, tiny, and unworkable. Of course, there was no photograph of the kitchen in the ad. What a surprise.

So, we try to show as much as possible and answer any and all questions posed to us so that we do not waste people's time. As Hemingway said: "Time is what we have the least of."

Streetwise123 must be a broker who does the same thing. Any customer finds this infuriatingly frustrating. You make it sound like its impossible for a buyer to find a 10016 zip code, so brokers are required to list it as 10003. If you're catering to the mentally retarded, maybe, but chances are buyers who want 10016 know how to type 10016.

407PAS, I have a strong feeling that you are soon going to learn the value of that $50,000 commission. Trying to save it will, and I'm guessing here, probably cost you in the neighborhood of $200,000. That is probably the amount you will have to lower your ask by the time you get an offer. The phrase is "penny wise and pound foolish." Best of Luck.

407PAS: If you need all of your buttons pushed, you'll have to spend more than $854K for a 2BR/2BA on the UWS... or you can wait, and hope the market completely crashes, but then your place will sell for less too.

West81st,
Yes, I am willing to pay more than $854k to get all of my buttons pushed! ;-) I am sorry that I did not make that clear. The apartment you posted looks like pretty good space and not a bad deal, honestly. I appreciate the fact that you pointed it out, and, yes, we had considered it.

I really hope we do not see a complete crash. I know many people on StreetEasy are screaming for blood. Let's see, that $50,000 was not only commission (2.5%) but also 6 months of maintenance (the guy actually said I should pay a year's worth), as well as a 5% cut from my current price, which has been cut twice ans is still the lowest one bedroom in my building, with three other apartments on the market.

Now, a $200,000 drop on my place would be a 40% haircut. Yeah, well, I don't believe it, and if we fall to that level, lots of people aren't going anywhere and all you real estate guys are in much worse trouble than I'll be in...

407 PAS -- I understand your qualms in making ad decisions -- welcome to my world!

If it helps, I think there's some moral justification for omitting the photo of the bathroom. You are presenting your best side initially, hoping that a buyer will be charmed enough to investigate more . .. but you're not lying. It's not like you're checking a box saying "we have a gorgeous bathroom."

What's interesting is where the flaw IS significant -- say you have an apartment where the kitchen is a little wall of appliances and not a separate room. In that case, the seller usually end up disclosing the flaw quite early, not necessarily out of a more refined moral sense but because it winnows out buyers who would otherwise just walk in, note the flaw, and walk right out again. As you noted, time is pretty precious these days.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Tech_guy....I am not a broker, 3rd grade teacher actually.
I guess I just feel that in this market the more exposure you can get for your apartment the better. Once people call the broker for the address they can then make the decision if the area is for them or not. Someone might not be considering this area, then see the apartment pictures, price etc. and then begin to consider it. Can't hurt and I bet the Corcoran apartment is sold looooong before the FSBO is.

Hey Streetwise123,
Please teach your 3rd graders to tell the truth. I guess by your logic I should be advertising my apartment as a high-end Park Avenue listing because look at the exposure I would get. Sigh.

We'll see about your claim. Free Market Economy.

so to summarize, some brokers including a broker listing a competing apartment are dishonest, therefore 407PAS can ask more for the apartment than it is worth because he isn't dishonest.

WRONG!

Some people are honest and some people are dishonest.

The truth is that 407PAS has to endure endless attacks from brokers because he is selling his place on his own.

Worth is something that is decided between a buyer and a seller at one moment in time, not by what you think.

407PAS's apartment is still the lowest priced one bedroom in his building, out of THREE other one bedrooms that are on the market.

And yes, I am honest and I pride myself on being honest.

The other broker in my building listed his properties correctly, so some brokers also value their own honesty.