Impressions of the current Rental Market

damn it. i wish you could correct typos!

friends who are looking are finding LLs are willing to give one/two months rent free and pay agent's fee. They are not willing to low the monthly rent probably because if the market turns around it's easier to raise the rent at the higher amount than if they lowered the monthly rent. am i making sense?

Seems to mimic the sales market - asking prices are coming down but slowly. As a result, inventory is piling up. At some point I'm guessing there will be a race to the bottom as landlords begin to realize overpriced units may sit empty for years. I suggest you only look at units where the owner clearly understands the market is falling or else you'll waste a ton of time.

Also the smaller LLs will be quicker to negotiate..they can't afford to leave apartments empty.

Yes - making sense. Thanks. Of course, we do not want a month or two for free. We want a lower monthly!

death mask...that's the impression

Thanks falco, but I don't know what that means.

Like anything else, It depends on the type of rental that the person is seeking. In my experience, owners seem more open to the qualifications of the prospective tenant, and the lease terms. In some cases people may get one months free rent, or a week, or the owner will offer to pay part of the broker fee, or other incentives. This does not appear to be a general rule, some private rentals still command broker fees by tenant, and to accept the terms of the lease as stated by the owner, or forget it :)

bmw - "owners seem more open to the qualifications of the prospective tenant" - are you suggesting that owners will give a more financially secure tenant a better deal or that owners just want financially secure tenants?

I appreciate your input but your advice seems to be for the rental market in general. I was hoping to get some input on the current rental market (i.e. the rental market during a recession). Perhaps you have seen no change.

We signed a lease in July for a 1,400-square-foot apartment on the Upper West Side. The rent is $6,880. Two of the same floorplans are available on lower floors for $5,800.

Yes, I have seen change, a few of my clients did get a cheaper rent, but it did help to ask for that when the tenants had significant assets, liquid and otherwise. In terms of what they did for a living, this is not relevant data to share, as I believe that what someone does for a living is a protected class. Overall, people with good credit, and significant income or savings were heard better and longer by the owners, before this market I wouldn't even think about going to ask for cheaper rent, I would never see that landlord again :)

Lower floors tend to be less - but I am sure if they keep sitting there vacant, then the owner is losing money, so they will likely take less than to wait for the person who can afford the high rent or will pay that kind of rent. Things are staying in the market longer! unless is a masterpiece for less

specialkay1 - Thanks. I wonder if they are comparable to yours (same condition, etc)

bmw - "a few of my clients did get a cheaper rent" - care to share how much cheaper? care to share what type of rental?

uwsmom-in my experience in the last 2 months, landlords were willing to accept an offer of $200 less than the asking rents plus pay the brokers fee &/or give a free month rent. This was for 1 bedrooms priced at $2,750- $3,200. Some landlords were willing to let the tenant prorate the free month & pay the net effective rent. in addition, in the last couple of weeks I've seen rent reductions of around $200 for apts that aren't moving.
sophia.anzaroot@elliman.com

with free months yields 20% drop in rent...

Agree with bmw's point on coop/condo owners vs. rental buildings. They are more likely to drop prices vs. giving months free rent (which i.m.o.is no more than a nice perk, as the monthly out of pocket will still be the actual rent). It will help to look at individually-owned properties that have been on the market for a while - good chance that the owner is sick and tired of not having the income and willing to negotiate lower, esp. for well qualified tenant. Two apts that we looked at as examples of the current state of the rental market: UWS townhouse triplex w/ garden that was listed initially for 14,500, came down (in corse of 8 months or so) to 9,000 and we offered (and got) 7,500. 2500 sq ft 3 BR/4BR apt with terrace in luxury condo building downtown started at 20K, came down to 10 being on the market for almost a year - offered (and got it for) 8. Fee paid by owner for both. Another thing: negotiate a long term lease (with optional break clause if that's what you need) so the rent doesn't go up once the 1-year lease term is up. Good luck.

uwsmom: The apartments are the same layout with the same features. One is four floors below and the other is six. I don't believe you could tell the difference between the apartments if you closed the blinds.

Thanks all.

drdr - thanks for writing up. This is interesting info. The problem w/ co-op rentals is a limited lease (1 or 2 years max), no? I'm not sure if condos have the same limitations. And yes, a long term lease w/ break out clause would be ideal. Awesome that you were able to secure one!

We'll probably be in the next rental for at least 4 years (possibly 5 or 6). From a longer term perspective, the free months rent may not be the greatest benefit, but we'd have to do the math.
Anyone know if there is a cap on how much a LL can increase rent from year to year?

A friend just rented a 2BR/2 bath on UWS. Got about 8% off the ask with 2 months free and owner paid broker fee (for a 2 year lease). We rented a Classic 6 in the West 80's in August. Same line, but much lower floor (8th v. 3rd) is now listed at 12% lower - who knows what they will get though.

No cap unless it is rent stabilised, and if it is RS with a lower "preferential rent" be aware that the LL can raise the rent back to the legal base at end of lease term.

I was notified of my rent to stay the same this month for a 4/30 lease end. However, I negotiated early and got a 7% reduction right away. Since I must notify atleast 30 days prior to my 4/30 date, I have a free 1.5month option if the market continues to slide and may negotiate further.

I should mention that my apt is in midtown near bryant park.

uwsmom - the interesting thing about free market rentals is that there is no particular # - the owner can choose basically to hike up the rent as much as they want. With rent controlled and stable, obviously that's different. Once again, I don't use a rule "boom $200 down on that, or please $300 down on that" If I have a good tenant, loyal and willing to give me a chance, and I know the building well, and I have easily put in a bid for $5000 for an apartment that was listed at $7000, my client was playing around and didn't want it, he wanted the perfect place for the least money, it took us at least two months to find it!!! but I did find for him was perfect for him and literally for under $5000 for a really nice lux two bed. Who knows, it all depends on the type of rental, I do usually over 4k because my life is easier trying to find properties and making a buck, and because my clients usually need me, they don't have time to search, negotiate, and yes, working at a top company, I am able to see a lot of details about the apartment that gives me a nice advantage to negotiate. If the apartment has been on the market 3 months and it was 12k, I am ok with putting in an offer for 8k right now, you have to be wiling to lose. Sorry I am rambling.

bmw, licensed real estate agent

Agree on coop rentals, they are a pain. It's key to find an owner who is planning to rent out the property for a longer time. I think in most cases, condo boards apporve for 1 year initially, then have a right of first refusal to continue the lease (but I don't think they make use of this very often - if you're a good tenant you should be fine). We wrote up a 3 year lease with 60 day break clause for tenant, with the provision that should the condo board decide to use their right of first refusal and terminate the lease after one year (highly unlikely that this will happen, but theoretically they can), the owner will pay two months for moving expenses.

As for the increase: I think in free market rentals anything is possible. We learned the hard way with our current (almost over) rental: LL increased rent by 25% after 1st year, and another 15% after the second year. If we didn't agree, he would just refuse to renew. Of course, not all LLs are jerks like this one. You may be able to include a rider specifying the yearly increase should the lease be renewed, but I think it's much safer to have a long-term lease.

"It's key to find an owner who is planning to rent out the property for a longer time." - - did you find that having a broker was helpful with this?

uwsmom I would like to talk about the current rental market. Is anyone out their actively negotiating now? Is anyone seeing/participating in successful negotiations of 20% less than ask (as one should expect)?

I think that is one of the problems I have encountered with this web-site. There are so many people here posting about how rents and buying should be 20% off. I think by the multitude of answers you have had here it is obvious that this is just not the case.
We are also looking on the UWS for a 2br 2ba and are not finding such deep discounts for anything of what I would consider living in and being happy to pay the rent asked. I just don't think the market is there and really don't know if it will get there, but one thing taht I have learned is not to believe in all the hoping that is going on in these threads. I have come to the conclusion that for now there is just a lot of wishful thinking and hoping going on here. This does not reflect the reality of the situation out there as of yet.

bmw - thanks again. I appreciate your input and i like your style ;)

kikithecat - Thanks for your thoughts, but I think I disagree w/ your assessment based on the responses.

uwsmom ok, but in all the responding have not read one that guides you to the 20% off. That is my point. It seems all the post are "this is where it should be" but it does not seem to be the reality of the situation. Not now, mabye later, not just not now.

uwsmom, no problem, If you have any questions during your search feel free to contact me. bmwapartments@gmail.com

uwsmom - most condo owners list thru a broker, and just asking the owner's broker will clarify what situation the owner is in/how long he is palnning to rent the apt for. I do see the value of a good RE agent and think bringing a broker may help negotiate a good lease for some people in some situations, but we've found that our negotiation skills are on par with the few brokers we've worked with, and negotiating directly with the owner/owner's broker definitely got us a better deal (i.e. we negotiated the fee down/being paid by owner, which was hard/impossible with a few other condo listings that we looked at before where there was a shared fee situation).

"We are also looking on the UWS for a 2br 2ba and are not finding such deep discounts for anything of what I would consider living in and being happy to pay the rent asked."

Just because you are happy to pay the asking rent certainly doesnt mean you couldnt have gotten it for less! Thats like going into a car dealership and paying full sticker price just because you thought it was fair.

UESBandit please re-read my post, you have it all wrong. I am not "happy to pay the rent" just want something to find that I would be happy to pay. Please, reading comprehension is so important today.
Go back and try to comprehend the theme of the posints before you make your judgements

I agree with bandit. Negotiating will pay dividends. The likelihood of renting out a place on last years rates is nil. If you leave, the chance of eating a month or two of vacancy is high.

streakeasy Please, read the OP opening statement. Advising someone to negotiate (as bandit)is like telling someone to breath in and out. If you need to be told this, you should not be out alone.
The opening statement is that you should be able to walk in to any apartment and negotiate 20% off either renting or buying is simply as I have found not the reality.
This is another problem in SE, people oversimplfing OPs or answers to suite their own agendas.

Kiki,

Sorry I misunderstood, your sentence structure isnt very good so it doesnt make sense. In either case, you should probably re-adjust your priorities. First decide what it is (from a $ perspective) that you DO want to pay. Next, go look at apartments priced at roughly 20% ABOVE that. If you like the place, make the offer at your desired rent (asking price - 20%). Be firm about it, tell the broker/property manager that its your 'best and final'. If you really want extra negotiating room, offer to sign a 24 month lease. However, if you are looking at 24 months make sure you are pushing for 30% off of asking (at minimum).

kikithecat - I think bmw's point about negoationas is a good one: you have to give yourself time AND you have to be willing to walk. It looks like there are some people getting significant discounts in this market. And there SHOULD be significant discounts IMHO. I don't think this is a misguided assertion.

Thank you Bandit, for taking time to actually read, and give me a very good answer. And yes, when I type, I tend to ramble.

lol - what word did I type - negoationas!!! I assume you knew what I meant ;)

drdr - mind if I ask what strategy you used when apartment hunting (streeteasy listings, asking doormen, etc)?

uwsmom--this might be relevant to you and this thread. My wife and I received a renewal notice for the same rent for two years, but given our family situation, this was too much money to spend and decided to ask for less. The building offered us a 3% discount, even though they were advertising a similar unit in the building for 5% less and then a free month. In addition, we would have needed to put up a wall to make the apt. more suitable to our needs. We called management companies and searched StreetEasy and the papers to see what we could find and since we knew we wanted to stay nearby or move further up a little, we knew exactly what and where we wanted making our search easier. We saw similar size places for 25% less than our current rent with free months, etc. at similar buildings.

I am moving to my new unit next Friday. After notifying my building, they have already asked to show this unit twice. However, there is still a unit vacant across the hall since October. On my floor, another unit is currently being renovated. It sounds as if the apt. below mine is also being worked on. Another tenant will be leaving shortly as well on my floor. That's a lot of vacancies. However, the building manager stated that the building is 98% occupied--she told me this after I notified her of our exit. Take that for what you will.

For my new lease, all I had to do to get a rent reduction was ask, I'm sure I could have finagled more had I tried. Regardless, I am moving from a JR4 to a 2br/2ba 2 blocks away from my current location (and not two blocks toward the boonies) and paying $600 less a month and getting a free month on a 14 month lease. My cost of paying movers is less than my cost of staying (putting up a wall). We know we give up a little (light, not quite as "nice"), but get what we need--more space for less money with good closet space and a decent kitchen area.

My brother-in-law recently negotiated a decrease as well at a nearby building of about 3% on a 1br.

Hi mom - we used all available sources: friends/colleagues who live in rental/condo buildings who asked their doormen. Got hold of phone numbers of the doormen in the buildings we like, to keep track of apartments in those buildings. And then of course streeteasy, which before this search I had never heard of and now am pretty hooked on (learning a lot about real estate - or so I tell myself). I particularly like the feature of being able to search by square ft (space is a priority for us) and the fact that one can see the price history of a particular apt and other apts in the same building. The latter has helped us a lot in negotiations. We did, in the very beginning, use a 'buyer's broker' (tenant's broker??), but I felt that that only slowed us down (getting information first hand rather than thru an intermediate is much more efficient), and decreased our negotiating power.

Oh - and another thing: getting the lease right is key. Buildings/management companies tend to push leases on tenants that are clearly a disaster for the tenant and only benefiting the LL (with sometimes clauses that I've asked myself if they were actually legal). Reading them well, striking through articles that are clearly damaging your rights, and adding riders that specify your wishes will pay off in the end. A 'buyer's broker' might be able to help with this, but it's also common sense and we had no problem spending a few hours on it.

spike & drdr - thanks so much for your input.

And kikithecat - Upon further consideration, I gather what you're saying is that you, personally, are NOT seeing/experiencing this significant reduction. That is very useful to know. Perhaps it's an indication that if there are significant reductions to be had in the current market, they still require a bit of digging. I appreciate your thoughts.

mom sorry to get back to you so late. End of day thing.
Yes that is what I am saying. That I personally have not seen a nice UWS 2bd 2ba apartment at the reductions that are being spoken about on this site. No where near the 20% that you have opened this discussion about. That is my point. What people post here and what the reality are in the real world are different. I realize every building and every neighborhood is different, but I have not found this reduction to be.

uws mom. We are looking for a 2-3 bedroom on the UWS with outdoor space. We dont care about doorman buildigns and prefer prewar character or townshouse (what are your parameters?)

We have looked for about 5 months now, and have not made any offers on apartments yet but saw a number of those apts drop their price from 5% to 15% in that time. But who is to know if they were overpriced already in a non-recession market (Citihabitats seems to be exceptionally good at overpricing).

We went to see an (in our view overpriced) 3 bed garden duplex in a townhouse this week for $4995 that just came on the market. The broker told us that a 10% below asking would be a good place to start on an offer, and that he was seeing $6000 apts come down to $5000 and $5500 apts to $4500.

We are going to make an offer on a place this week with a 15% below ask (in the hope we may get to 10% below). I'll let you know how it goes.

Attention streakeasy

You said- I was notified of my rent to stay the same this month for a 4/30 lease end. However, I negotiated early and got a 7% reduction right away. Since I must notify atleast 30 days prior to my 4/30 date, I have a free 1.5month option if the market continues to slide and may negotiate further. I should mention that my apt is in midtown near bryant park.

Would be interested to know the building if possible due to looking ourselves in that area at the moment. Was it the Atlas?

The market is in steep decline. If lease is coming up I would (1) ask for a 20-40% rent decrease, if they say no then (2) leave....there is a HUGE selection of rentals out there right now, for prices we have not seen since 2002 or so, some in great locations and many landlords are willing to negotiate. My friend just got $1000/month off an asking price of $2800/month. People are leaving the city by the truckload, don't stick with a landlord that will not lower your rent.

My own anecdotal observation is that asking rents seem to have tanked between December and January and are now starting to level off or increase slightly. Do you suppose landlords are starting to inflate prices in anticipation of downward negotiations? Or has there been some kind of sudden uptick in leasing activity?

Misha - please let us know how it goes. Good Luck!!!
We're hoping for a 3 bedroom (or 2br + office) in a well maintained building, just not walk-up. Must have laundry. Don't care about fancy frills. Ideally south of 86th but I'm starting to warm up to 90's on RSD & WEA. No more than $5500. Less than $5000 would be awesome (but unlikely). We'll see how we do ;). I'm trying to stay optimistic!

hejiranyc - "Do you suppose landlords are starting to inflate prices in anticipation of downward negotiations?" - quite possible

FALCO! Just got it. Impressions....Man, I'm getting slower.

UWSmom - not sure why you are perplexed, did a quick search in the WEST VILLAGE and came up with 995 three bedrooms or under $5500 - sure they do not all meet your requirements, but I bet a bunch of them do:

http://newyork.craigslist.org/search/aap/mnh?query=west+village&minAsk=min&maxAsk=5500&bedrooms=3&neighborhood=

If I were you I would lower my price to about 3-4k....good luck!

sorry, just noticed you only wanted UWS, but I would think the prices are even lower up there.

>>> My own anecdotal observation is that asking rents seem to have tanked between December and January and are now starting to level off or increase slightly. Do you suppose landlords are starting to inflate prices in anticipation of downward negotiations? Or has there been some kind of sudden uptick in leasing activity?

Interesting ... my opinion is the oppostite, that the rental market is continuing to weaken ...

I agree with kspeak - I have not seen the rental market this weak in many many years

Well, I am focusing my search on the West Village/Chelsea area, and I noticed that things have kinda flattened out a bit. And I also checked at a building in the WV I used to live in between 2004 and 2006, and the current asking rents are still about 20%-25% higher than back then. It's kind of discouraging...

I know that when I signed my new lease it was around 20% less than a few months before. I met a woman in my bldg today who lives in a 1 br and pays $400 more than me and I have a jr 4 with 2 full baths around 350 sf larger than her apt. Rental market is definitely weak and there are deals to be had

cccharley A few months before would be around December. At 20% less the your previous lease. I'm sorry, I am having a hard time believing this. The market is soft, but that soft it is not.

The problem with the rental market...not many renters out there. Many people just looking to improve on what they already have and in some cases this makes sense. Landlords are also clamping down and making it very difficult to get out of a lease you may have signed 3-6 months ago. You can't generalize about the market and must look at each neighborhood, apartment individually. I focus on the prime downtown neighborhoods and quality apartments are trading at 10-15% below peak. Investor owned condos in buildings like 101 warren are seeing very significant price reductions, initial pricing was very high to begin with though. I don't consider this prime downtown.

Lot's of very good deals for those just moving here on a budget if you are willing to go to the fringes of neighborhoods. Small one bedrooms on 46th and 9th ave priced at $1600 per month in an elevator building. The Greystone I believe on west 91st street is offering 2-3 months concessions. Prices in the West Village/Village are holding up well and I am renting all my listing quite quickly. I showed a very nice two bedroom/1 bath in an elevator building, renovated approx. 850 square feet, fireplace, high ceilings for $3150 no fee prime Chelsea block.

Negotiating is happening on all deals, more so on individually owned condos and co-ops. Inventory definitely building in not prime areas and less than desirable apartments. It's starting to remind me of the early 90's where you could expect a 20-30% discount to rent in fringe neighborhoods, compared to a prime established area. It's just that during the boom years so many fringe neighborhoods saw big time development, makes things a bit interesting.

They chop fast in my bldg - don't want empty apartments. I signed beginning of december. There were at least 2 $300 chops - and they had lots of inventory at that time. Not much anymore because of the price cuts. They even rented some real 2br 2ths under 4000. I'm in Murray Hill - maybe not the primest of areas. I know that the building I left is cutting too. Last year the 1brs were up to $3800 - now they are in the high 2000s. The one I'm in now had some 1brs rented at $2500.

i negotiated my rent down over 1000, its a condo building that owner is renting. but there is no doubt in my mind that rents are collapsing just as fast. was paying around 6500 for 2b/2b near central park and now less, and probably could have gone lower, so down 20 to 25% isnt out of the question. personally rents are still out of hand and given the current drop in wages, etc, expect them to move lower

I'm sorry if someone else came up w/ this, and I know that not everyone likes FiDi, BUT 20 Pine, find the 2 bed rental, 1275 sf, listed at $4300. Originally this sucker was listed at $12,000. As my 12 year old would say, OMG.

"rents are still out of hand and given the current drop in wages, etc, expect them to move lower"

Agree, 007.

You know I spoke with the manager of my old building. We used to yack about the market. He knows they are going to keep going down but in his own words ="We had quite a run......." Prices rose up to 50% from 2002-2008

cccharley - i like your old bldg mngr - uws perchance ;)

No also -Murray Hill - part of Ogden Cap Properties. I'm now in a Manhattan skyline bldg and hoping prices continue to plunge so I can buy the same size apt I am currently renting for posterity

Everything is going to change if the state house passes the bills that are proposed bringing back about 300,000 apartments to rent stablization. My fingers are crossed.

UESbandit - "if you are looking at 24 months make sure you are pushing for 30% off of asking (at minimum)."

Curious - what is your rationale for this suggestion? I suspect it is that you're doing the landlord a favor by signing on for more than 1 year and ensuring continuous rental income. However, from the LL's perspective, I would think this would be a disadvantage since they can't increase your rent. Therefore, wouldn't a longer lease come at a higher cost?

What do others think of this?

Bidding lower with a longer lease seems counterintuitive to me (I think).

uwsmom,

No, signing a long term lease always results in a lower rent (its been that way for years). This fact is only amplified in this economy, as the LL knows the rents will continue to come down. So to answer your question, yes you are doing the LL a favor by agreeing to a long term lease. The only time a LL might not want a long term lease is if you are renting from the owner of a condo/coop, and they might want the flexibility to sell the place in 12 months.

UESBandit's logic may be right, but most LLs don't think that way - they are trained to be optimists (like RE agents).

Maybe there are exceptions, but I've always been able to get better deals for 1-year than trying to go longer. uwsmom, I think you'll have to decide whether (a) you want to get the best deal you can for now, and gamble on your negotiating skills/further declines when lease is up or (b) sign for longer and pay more.

Just my 2 cents.

newbuyer,

I dont know what landlords you have dealt with, however charging more for a longer term lease is virtually unheard of in a traditional rental building (in NYC at least). Again, if dealing directly with the owners of an apartment that might not be the case however.

In this market you may find many LL's that would prefer a 2 year lease. But in a strong market many prefer and in some cases will only offer a 1 year. One reason if you turn out to be a lousy tenant they can get rid of you after a year. If the market really accelerates they will able to squeeze a few extra percentage points on your renewal.

Until last summer almost all landlords I dealt with, if they did offer 2 year leases would want a 3-6% increase in the second year. I don't want to name names, but if you ask around I am sure this will be confirmed. I primarily deal with properties below 34th street, of course things have changed significantly.

I have never once (in the last 10 years at least) seen a landlord charge more for a 2 year lease. During this period of time (10 years) I have lived in a few apartments in midtown and the upper east side, and almost every LL has tried to push a 24 month lease on me for a lower cost.

I should also point out that I have only lived in full service doorman buildings. I cant imagine walkup type buildings could get away with charging higher rents for 2 years either.

UESBandit, I guess my experience (all with large rental companies) is exactly the opposite of what you say. All large NYC rental companies, mostly doorman, all over the last 10 years.

newbuyer,

Well I should clarify one point. Lets say the apartment was (random number) $2000 per month on a 12 month term. The building would then offer it (on a 24 month term) for $1900 for the first year, with a set increase of $250 for the second year (again, all made up numbers). I also never once dealt with a broker, as I simply went directly to the management company. I guess everyone's experience is different, but everyone I know had the same experience as I did.

In either case, in this market any management company would LOVE to have you sign a 24 month lease. As far as they are concerned they are locking up revenue in a declining market. Now is certainly a renters market!

uwsmom: Yesterday I put in an offer to rent an apartment at 15% below ask (which was already 15% below what the previous tenant had been paying). It turns out that this was the 3rd offer they received at 15% below, and the owner had turned down the first two. I offered to sign an 18-month lease - I don't know if this could be a tiebreaker for the owner. I am also now contemplating upping the offer (but not by much - maybe to 10% below ask). I am also thinking of sweetening the deal by offering 2-3 months' advance payment. Has anyone tried that and does it work?

I have also been writing to brokers with stale sales listings that have been chopped at least once, asking if the owner would consider renting out his/her unit. They all have said no so far. I wonder if that will change.

(As to two-year leases, when I have had them in the past the rent was slightly more in the second year - those were the good old days just before the market went insane, when I paid $1900 in year one and $1950 in year two).

When I signed I asked for a 2 year lease - they would only give it to me with a 3% increase. I said to shove it because I think things will continue to go down and certainly not up by next Feb so if anything my increase will be less than 3% - if it's really bad I'll ask for a decrease.

I have dealt with two "traditional" rental buildings in the past 5 years and they both wanted more for a two-year lease. I'm sure this is changing now.

does anything think by next Oct-Nov I'll be able to rent a one bedroom, elevator non-doorman bldg for under $2k?

I would guess so, Julia. There seems to be plenty of inventory at $2K right now, and I don't imagine prices will go up. Heck, take a look at the $2500 1BR in 220 Riverside Blvd. It looks rented now, but that is a pretty fancy new condo building built just a few years ago. If the clears the market for $2500, I'm pretty sure you can find something with your criteria for $2000, no?

Onthemove:Individual owners usually respond well to rent paid in advance especially when we are talking about 4 months+. I have used this strategy successfully in the past.

theburkhardtgroup: Can you tell me how that works? When you make an initial payment of 4 months' rent, do you then pay monthly so that you are always paid up 4 months in advance? Or do you wait a few months before making the next payment and revert to paying for each month at the beginning of the month? If the latter, how do you ensure you don't get screwed at the end of the tenancy by the landlord not paying you back the 4 months' advance? Thanks.

we found an apt we loved in december/january. It was above our range but had come down 30% (over a course of drops) from its September first listing price. I believe it was probably about $500-$750 overpriced in September (ie from peak prices).

fast forward to february. we offered an additional 10% drop from the lowest ask, plus a bunch of months up front. we were told by the broker this was too low and to offer the original 30% below original ask. this seems a bit strange if we are offering six months up front.

what I'm asking is how much percentage off ask do you think you should you expect with an offer of 6 months up front in rent? (we were told the landlord would like this)

Misha,

If the apartment is a rental building, simply go around the broker and make the offer directly to the building management. They will work directly with you, AND give you a better price. If the apartment is a condo/coop, send a letter with your offer directly to the owner.

OnTheMove: You should start paying rent after the pre-paid rent has been used.

FYI: Be careful about "going around the broker" if he/she has already introduced you to a property. If the owner becomes aware of this little scheme they may not want to deal with you at all. If you willfully enacted the services of a broker and freely went to see a property then try and go around there back-this does not give the impression to the LL that you are a trustworthy person.

If you do not want to use the service of a broker, don't call one.

"Be careful about "going around the broker" if he/she has already introduced you to a property. If the owner becomes aware of this little scheme they may not want to deal with you at all."

Well yes and no. If you are trying to make an offer that you feel the broker isnt rolling up to the owner/building management company, then there is no reason not to go around the broker. I would only suggest doing so if you feel the broker isnt doing their job however.

Onthemove - as for paying rent in advance, just this one caveat: you have no leverage when things turn out not as planned, e.g. repairs aren't made, landlord doesn't hold promises. We paid 6 months upfront in our current rental and had so many issues for the first 6 months that only got resolved once we started paying the rent (and threatening to have a contractor fix it and withhold the cost from the monthly rent). Can't imagine how quickly, after those first 6 months, the heating system started working, washer & dryer were repaired, the mice problem was addressed, the promised double-pane windows installed, etc etc. Now, admittedly our landlord is the biggest scumbag in NYC and I'm sure there are really nice folks out there - but ultimately what speaks to these people is $$$ and if you pay in advance you're clearly at a disadvantage.

Thought I would update based on what we've experienced in the last few weeks. We've seen about ten 3 br apartments, ranging in price from $5500-$9500 (all UWS south of 90th St). My impression at this point is that the rental market is inconsistent at best. We've seen the majority of LL's willing to pay the broker fee. We've seen apartments sitting for 6+ months with over 30% reduction in asking price. And, we've seen apartments that are raising the asking price (in one instance, the current tenant is paying $6800 and the owner plans to increase the price to $8500 - terrible builing, nicely sized classic 6). Of course, places that have been sitting the longest seem VERY willing to negotiate. Seems that desperation is setting in for some while others are still very comfortable playing chicken.

Our update: We made an offer on a 1600 ft 2 bed UWS place with 400 ft outdoor garden in a ground floor/ first floor duplex in a townhome (ie: no basement) next to Riverside park in the 70s. It started at $7500 pre-Lehman and then went down to $5000 in mid January after a series of reductions over a series of months. We offered $4600 on 2 year lease but owner was not interested. Long story and lots of haggling short, we ended up paying the $5000 but got a 2 year lease, which is what we requested. We also had to pay a $4000 broker fee. We absolutely love the apartment ( we saw over 50 in the last 6 months and this was one of 3 we really liked). I believe it was probably worth 7000 at peak so still feel we got a good deal, and if that figure is correct we still got near 30% off peak. Hope you find something soon uwsmom.

Misha - Congrats! Sounds like a great space!! Yeah - from what I can gather, it's all a big game of chicken. I suppose as a landlord/seller, if you don't need to budge right away, why would you? Enjoy the new home. I'm glad it worked out :)

FWIW I have always insisted on making my offers face to face with the owners, LL, brokers all present. I did this on 2 rentals and 2 condo purchases and 1 home purchase in the last 15 years. This really opens communications and speeds up negotiations. Most brokers hate this and do their best to avoid this because they are control freaks and basically scumbags. I just let them know upfront that this is how I work.

The scenario works like this, I call a listing agent on an apartment and I go see it. If I don't like it, they usually offer to show me something else. That's when I explain my ground rules. From that point forward it is clear who is the bitch in this relationship and then I don't have any future issues like offers not being accepted, etc.

I think a lot of this is more extreme in "emerging" areas. I live in Harlem in a newish (2005) condo paying $4000 (3 bd 2.5 bath, laundry in unit, large outdoor space.) I moved in in the summer of 2007. An IDENTICAL unitl next door was for sale, then for rent at $4000, then $3500, now its down to $3000. Needless to say I am moving when our lease is up, but you can see similar 30-40% price drops in brand new doorman condos all over Harlem, LIC, and below Chambers, as well as again in Hells Kitchen. Drastic price drops on both rental-only buildings and condos that won't sell. Its fan-fricken-tastic.