My wife and I live in Manhattan and want to return to Brooklyn Heights/Cobble Hill, where we lived years ago. We can buy, but want to rent a 1-bedroom in the area first, and look for just the right apartment. The problem is that rents in prime Brooklyn are now more expensive than for equivalent apartments in Manhattan. We’re not looking for handouts, we just want something that makes sense, yet... [more]
My wife and I live in Manhattan and want to return to Brooklyn Heights/Cobble Hill, where we lived years ago. We can buy, but want to rent a 1-bedroom in the area first, and look for just the right apartment. The problem is that rents in prime Brooklyn are now more expensive than for equivalent apartments in Manhattan. We’re not looking for handouts, we just want something that makes sense, yet all we find is insane pricing and belligerent brokers.
Some examples:
The Standish (which really should be called the Standoffish, if you go by the attitude of the door people and leasing agents) is in a great location, but the apartments have gotten a terribly slapdash renovation. The ones we saw ALL had warped floors, small, cheap refrigerators, ugly stall showers, and ancient HUGE AC units, complete with a ratty patch of Astroturf on top, shoved into windows that might otherwise have a view. And for this they want over 3k per month for a modest 1-bedroom. We’ve seen similar, but much better apartments in Manhattan for the same price or less.
52 Clark has very small, modest 1-bedroom apartments at rents that start to approach a reasonable level, but the building is in really poor shape and seems to have a serious roach problem.
The Court House Apartments is staffed by a bunch of apathetic hipsters, extremely reluctant to lift their butts out of their seats to show you the dark and dismal apartments. That’ll be $3,800 for a 1-bed; don’t mind the moldy bathroom.
Private landlords haven’t been much better – we’ve looked at apartments described as “enormous” only to find split brownstones (2 apts. Per floor) which are under 500 sf with vestigial kitchens in dingy, dirty walkups for around 2K. Oh, and the brokers insist on a 12% fee, “it’s our policy, non-negotiable”. Well, it’s my policy to not get ripped off. And nice as BK Heights is, it’s NOT Manhattan.
What is going on here? Do the newspapers not cross the river, or is the demand in Brooklyn Heights really strong enough to sustain these absurd prices? Many of these apartments have been sitting for months, yet I see little will to face reality and set reasonable rents. They all seem to think this is still 2005. Are we stuck in Manhattan?
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Response by GraffitiGrammarian
almost 17 years ago
Posts: 687
Member since: Jul 2008
StF62, they are going to wake up from this drunken stupor soon, with a mighty hangover.
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Response by evnyc
almost 17 years ago
Posts: 1844
Member since: Aug 2008
Wait until spring when many leases come up for renewal. They'll figure out that they have to start competing with the Financial District's offerings. I made the same decision recently and got a good deal on a place in Tribeca. The BH apartments I saw were 200 sf smaller and cost hundreds of dollars more; it wasn't even a contest.
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Response by fishermb
almost 17 years ago
Posts: 85
Member since: Aug 2008
StF62: I'm signing a lease on a completely renovated 1-br in prime Heights for $2,000/month for 5/1. Regarding the CourtHouse, you can get a 1-br at $2800-2900, which they are negotiable to about $2500 per month. When you consider how nice that building is, in the great location, I don't think it's that unreasonable. BH and CH are small hoods, thus keeping inventory low and demand high for those who like the neighborhood. I've lived here for 2 years and have no desire to go back to the city, even if it means paying about equal for what I could get in Manhattan. Good luck-
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Response by GraffitiGrammarian
almost 17 years ago
Posts: 687
Member since: Jul 2008
This argument that BH and CH are "small" and therefore "supply-constrained," is silly.
EVERY neighborhood in NYC is small and supply-constrained. The reason districts get carved up into neighborhoods is so school administrators and community boards, etc., can set up functional organizational structures....
By the standards being argued here, Murray Hill is small and supply-constrained, Yorkville is small and supply-constrained, Far Rockaway is small and supply-constrained...it's a nonsensical argument.
If you ignore the arbitrary neighborhood boundaries, the area known as "brownstone Brooklyn" is vast and far-reaching. It is not supply-constrained.
Brooklyn never priced on a par with Manhattan until the last real estate bubble. There is no reason to believe par-pricing will hold after the bubble deflates.
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Response by tina24hour
almost 17 years ago
Posts: 720
Member since: Jun 2008
I'm a broker in Brooklyn and find myself asking BH clients, "Would you be willing to move to Manhattan? You can get more for your money there."
That said, there are some good places out there. People do like the Court House, and you should be able to negotiate a decent deal (as fishermb cites above). It's not leafy green BH, like the Standish, but the finishes and services are much better. There are sometimes rentals in 110 Livingston as well - check the Two Trees website.
For true Brooklyn Heights, and if you are willing to pay a fee, I think Brian Lehner at BHS (not my company) has great listings. He's been a broker in the neighborhood forever, and has some really nice exclusives. Just scanning his listings, here's a brownstone floor-through on Schermerhorn with two wood-burning fireplaces for $2250: http://www.bhsbrooklyn.com/detail.asp?id=984040 Probably a crappy kitchen, but...
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Response by JKB
almost 17 years ago
Posts: 162
Member since: Nov 2007
StF62, we live in BH and pay below market on the same small apt. we've been in since 2004, one of those 400-sq.-ft. split-floor brownstone places you mention. My feeling is that you shouldn't expect to move to BH and get a big discount off what you'd pay in Manhattan. I think when I was looking, my place was roughly a $200 discount/month from comparable places on the Upper West Side. And we could have swung the prices of Manhattan, we just liked BH more.
IMHO, people have woken up to the fact that BH can be preferable to many Manhattan neighborhoods, by some people's criteria. For instance, if you're comparing it to apartments on the UES, forget it. I can think of 10 or 20 reasons BH is preferable to large portions of the UES (or the far E. Village or the UWS north of 100th or so). If you're thinking of moving back here, you must have your reasons, right?
I think rents in BH will drop, just like everywhere else, but I doubt they'll drop significantly farther or faster. Though evnyc makes a good point -- BH will likely have to start competing with Manhattan where the intensity of the churn has seemed to make rents drop more significantly.
As for belligerent brokers, maybe they've gone from offering incentives to bullying. I don't wonder that many of them are truly desperate in a tough market and are out for any last bit of blood they can find (yours). They may also have just gotten cocky and can't face a new reality.
I also wonder if the landlords of smaller buildings in BH can afford to let their places sit empty because they bought the buildings for a song in 90s (or earlier). You'd think they'd drop the rents, but they may not want to set a bad precedent. Until they absolutely have to ...
I'd think - like everyone else - if you can afford to take your time, wait a bit and shop for a deal, you'll eventually find what you're looking for. Don't know what your timeframe is for moving, though, or what your expectations are for a 'Brooklyn discount.'
Good luck!
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Response by StF62
almost 17 years ago
Posts: 128
Member since: Jan 2009
Thanks all for the advice.
I don't expect to get significantly cheaper rents in BH, but I also don't expect to pay significantly more than Manhattan - and that's what I've been seeing. Indeed, we prefer Brooklyn to Manhattan, but we also realize that the intrinsic value of real estate in Manhattan is higher. Always has been, and I suspect, always will be. The boroughs – even our beloved Brooklyn – are priced in relation to Manhattan. I still want to buy in Brooklyn, but that's probably 1-2 years down the line; it would be nice to live there until I'm ready to buy.
For many year I lived in Carroll Gardens, until I had to move for business two years ago. I had a huge, beautiful floor-through for a very low price. Now that I’m back I don't expect to get that sort of deal in BH, but when I see split brownstone apts. for 2,000 in filthy, poorly maintained building, I know I'm getting ripped off. Saw a few of those today, complete with uncovered garbage cans right under the windows. granted, I could do a bit better in CH or CG, but I need access to more than one subway line. for that BH is nearly as convenient as staying in Manhattan.
I’m in a nice 1 bed for 2500 now, in a beautiful full-service art deco building. If I renew, I can probably renegotiate down to 2200 or so. This is in prime Manhattan - I don’t expect to pay more for the same in Brooklyn.
(By the way, I do not consider Court House acceptable. It’s atrociously ugly, except for the south-facing corner apartments, and has the soul of a refrigerator.)
I still have some time since our lease is up in May, so things may change. The search goes on!
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Response by JKB
almost 17 years ago
Posts: 162
Member since: Nov 2007
Yeah, if you can get a nice, good-size 1 BR in a nice Manhattan area for $2,200, I can't see Brooklyn Heights going lower in the next few months. The apartment below ours (beautiful, but small, 1 BR) rented for $2,000 a couple of years ago, and that guy thought he got a steal.
Not sure how average 1 BRs got to $2,500/month in BH, CH, and CG, but they have. Carroll Gardens is truly mystifying to me. It's a fantastic neighborhood, but not convenient to anything else. I'd consider it more seriously if I didn't have to get Manhattan every day.
StF62, they are going to wake up from this drunken stupor soon, with a mighty hangover.
Wait until spring when many leases come up for renewal. They'll figure out that they have to start competing with the Financial District's offerings. I made the same decision recently and got a good deal on a place in Tribeca. The BH apartments I saw were 200 sf smaller and cost hundreds of dollars more; it wasn't even a contest.
StF62: I'm signing a lease on a completely renovated 1-br in prime Heights for $2,000/month for 5/1. Regarding the CourtHouse, you can get a 1-br at $2800-2900, which they are negotiable to about $2500 per month. When you consider how nice that building is, in the great location, I don't think it's that unreasonable. BH and CH are small hoods, thus keeping inventory low and demand high for those who like the neighborhood. I've lived here for 2 years and have no desire to go back to the city, even if it means paying about equal for what I could get in Manhattan. Good luck-
This argument that BH and CH are "small" and therefore "supply-constrained," is silly.
EVERY neighborhood in NYC is small and supply-constrained. The reason districts get carved up into neighborhoods is so school administrators and community boards, etc., can set up functional organizational structures....
By the standards being argued here, Murray Hill is small and supply-constrained, Yorkville is small and supply-constrained, Far Rockaway is small and supply-constrained...it's a nonsensical argument.
If you ignore the arbitrary neighborhood boundaries, the area known as "brownstone Brooklyn" is vast and far-reaching. It is not supply-constrained.
Brooklyn never priced on a par with Manhattan until the last real estate bubble. There is no reason to believe par-pricing will hold after the bubble deflates.
I'm a broker in Brooklyn and find myself asking BH clients, "Would you be willing to move to Manhattan? You can get more for your money there."
That said, there are some good places out there. People do like the Court House, and you should be able to negotiate a decent deal (as fishermb cites above). It's not leafy green BH, like the Standish, but the finishes and services are much better. There are sometimes rentals in 110 Livingston as well - check the Two Trees website.
For true Brooklyn Heights, and if you are willing to pay a fee, I think Brian Lehner at BHS (not my company) has great listings. He's been a broker in the neighborhood forever, and has some really nice exclusives. Just scanning his listings, here's a brownstone floor-through on Schermerhorn with two wood-burning fireplaces for $2250: http://www.bhsbrooklyn.com/detail.asp?id=984040
Probably a crappy kitchen, but...
StF62, we live in BH and pay below market on the same small apt. we've been in since 2004, one of those 400-sq.-ft. split-floor brownstone places you mention. My feeling is that you shouldn't expect to move to BH and get a big discount off what you'd pay in Manhattan. I think when I was looking, my place was roughly a $200 discount/month from comparable places on the Upper West Side. And we could have swung the prices of Manhattan, we just liked BH more.
IMHO, people have woken up to the fact that BH can be preferable to many Manhattan neighborhoods, by some people's criteria. For instance, if you're comparing it to apartments on the UES, forget it. I can think of 10 or 20 reasons BH is preferable to large portions of the UES (or the far E. Village or the UWS north of 100th or so). If you're thinking of moving back here, you must have your reasons, right?
I think rents in BH will drop, just like everywhere else, but I doubt they'll drop significantly farther or faster. Though evnyc makes a good point -- BH will likely have to start competing with Manhattan where the intensity of the churn has seemed to make rents drop more significantly.
As for belligerent brokers, maybe they've gone from offering incentives to bullying. I don't wonder that many of them are truly desperate in a tough market and are out for any last bit of blood they can find (yours). They may also have just gotten cocky and can't face a new reality.
I also wonder if the landlords of smaller buildings in BH can afford to let their places sit empty because they bought the buildings for a song in 90s (or earlier). You'd think they'd drop the rents, but they may not want to set a bad precedent. Until they absolutely have to ...
I'd think - like everyone else - if you can afford to take your time, wait a bit and shop for a deal, you'll eventually find what you're looking for. Don't know what your timeframe is for moving, though, or what your expectations are for a 'Brooklyn discount.'
Good luck!
Thanks all for the advice.
I don't expect to get significantly cheaper rents in BH, but I also don't expect to pay significantly more than Manhattan - and that's what I've been seeing. Indeed, we prefer Brooklyn to Manhattan, but we also realize that the intrinsic value of real estate in Manhattan is higher. Always has been, and I suspect, always will be. The boroughs – even our beloved Brooklyn – are priced in relation to Manhattan. I still want to buy in Brooklyn, but that's probably 1-2 years down the line; it would be nice to live there until I'm ready to buy.
For many year I lived in Carroll Gardens, until I had to move for business two years ago. I had a huge, beautiful floor-through for a very low price. Now that I’m back I don't expect to get that sort of deal in BH, but when I see split brownstone apts. for 2,000 in filthy, poorly maintained building, I know I'm getting ripped off. Saw a few of those today, complete with uncovered garbage cans right under the windows. granted, I could do a bit better in CH or CG, but I need access to more than one subway line. for that BH is nearly as convenient as staying in Manhattan.
I’m in a nice 1 bed for 2500 now, in a beautiful full-service art deco building. If I renew, I can probably renegotiate down to 2200 or so. This is in prime Manhattan - I don’t expect to pay more for the same in Brooklyn.
(By the way, I do not consider Court House acceptable. It’s atrociously ugly, except for the south-facing corner apartments, and has the soul of a refrigerator.)
I still have some time since our lease is up in May, so things may change. The search goes on!
Yeah, if you can get a nice, good-size 1 BR in a nice Manhattan area for $2,200, I can't see Brooklyn Heights going lower in the next few months. The apartment below ours (beautiful, but small, 1 BR) rented for $2,000 a couple of years ago, and that guy thought he got a steal.
Not sure how average 1 BRs got to $2,500/month in BH, CH, and CG, but they have. Carroll Gardens is truly mystifying to me. It's a fantastic neighborhood, but not convenient to anything else. I'd consider it more seriously if I didn't have to get Manhattan every day.