School district PS 84 Lillian Weber on UWS?

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Bugelrex: In a neighborhood as politically correct as 10023/4/5, this is somthing of a third-rail subject. You might want to take it off-line to get candid input.

Another problem is that very few people have recent, first-hand experience of multiple public schools, so most of the feedback you get will be based on a comparison between one school that a parent knows intimately and several others that they know only through hearsay and reputation.

Anyway, good luck. You've raised an interesting question,; it's just a highly charged one.

Check out the DOE's own stats for the schools. You can find test scores there which are more important than racial breakdowns (although that's listed as well). From http://schools.nyc.gov/default.htm you can search for schools and then go to Statistics and Annual School Report Card. The Accountability and Overview Report gives you breakdowns of the standardized tests. PS 84 scores are lower than 87 or 199. The ethnic breakdown is also listed if that's what concerns you as well as % eligible for free lunch.

How that translates into prices for 2 bedroom or larger apts is interesting. If you're going private or G&T it might not be a concern to you but could for resale. With all the new construction on the UWS and city/state budget problems its difficult to say that the good publics will still be good by the time you're ready to sell.

If you want a good all white school (I can tell that's what you want since I know how to read between the lines) then look into PS6. I am a former student.

Woohoo, why is that PS84 demographics doesn't match the demographics of its catchment area? The roots really go back to desegregation and white flight from city public schools. PS199, 87 and 9 have had the complexion of its students change over the last 10 years but in the case of 199 & 87 have been helped by the fact that there is no large public housing stock in their catchment area. Not so for PS191 (and I don't know about 84, 75, 163, 165).

alpine292,

Actually I was looking for a diverse school, not one where 95% of students are not one color. I was just shocked to see polar opposites within a 10 block radius in what is considered prime UWS.

And yes, there is ALWAYS a political undertone to this - google Madrona Park, Seattle & public school for example. While the local school in a gentrifying district may not be 1st choice for the children of the gentrifiers, the local school may be first choice for students from neighboring poorer districts. So the teachers/principals/educators are not exactly in a rush to welcome the children of the gentrifiers because they feel that they are serving a greater good by focusing on kids who don't have other better options. Not to mention that a more affluent parent body desires greater participation in school curriculum (read PITAs) and are not content with teachers teaching to standardized tests, etc.

Bugelrex: you are looking for diversity, not 90% one way or the other, which is something that is sorely lacking. The trouble is once public schools pass the tipping point and are perceived to be very good, you get a stampede of neighborhood parents which then alters the demographics considerably. There is no middle ground in the U.S., in general, and public schools that are diverse in the way you consider desirable are few and far between.

In a way, private schools may have more racial & socio-economic diversity than publics because if they have large endowments and if they are very highly sought after, they can engineer a diverse student body.

Bugelrex: To expand slightly on nyc10023's excellent posts... if you take the D3 catchment map, then superimpose a "heat map" reflecting the density of public housing, the pattern is hard to miss.

As for why the disparities in school population exceed the disparities between the demographics of the respective catchments, it's at least partly a function of "tipping points", as nyc10023 has mentioned elsewhere.

Keep in mind that what you're seeing in those stats isn't just white flight from certain schools. Another contributing factor is that some affluent/white homeowners CHOOSE to reside in weaker catchments because, for one reason or another, public schools are not a significant issue for them. Why pay a premium for a school they won't use anyway?

nyc10023: Sorry to parrot you... I was typing as you posted.

Good luck finding a diverse public school in Manhattan (you might have do better with Catholic schools if that is your persuasion just based on an unscientific survery of kids getting out of school together). Again, unscientifically despite some very well intentioned efforts our public schools resemble those of Alabama circa 1952. Outer boroughs may be better than Manhattan but then you have issues (especially in Queens) with non-English speaking kids of every racial background who can be a drain on already under resourced facilities. To be honest some 'burbs actually offer better school diversity than Manhattan, if you don't mind the schlepp and well the 'burbs.

Something else to think about, Bugelrex. When people (of any ethnicity) want racial and socio-economic diversity, they want enough to "expose" their children to different people but not "so much" diversity that their child is one of a few of their own kind. A good example is Stuy/Bx Sci/Brooklyn Tech and the Monterrey public schools (largely Asian). Generally known to be some of the best schools in the nation but are not diverse in the least. Because of the color-blind admissions, most students are either East Asian, South Asian or Russian. In the past, their student bodies were largely Jewish. There are a lot of families who would not send their white child to Stuy/Bx Sci because they would be in the minority...

Thanks for everyone's input. I think I'm starting to get a good handle on the wide differences.
Thanks!

Lizyank: agree. It's interesting that your average white middle-class family would probably not want to send their kids to some of the great public schools in Queens because they would then be a minority.

Sadly, if you cared about "diversity", then private is probably your best bet if you can afford it.

Also to West 81st's point about people who don't care about schools. Are you looking at total population breakout vs school breakout or school age children vs school? Its very likely that the population of one ethnic group underrepresented in the school population can be heavily weighted to 24-30 year old post-collegiates or 75+ grandmothers or another group that is highly unlikely to impact the schools irrespective of racial makeup.

Lizyank: true, but if you look at the people with young children living in any of the D3 schoolzones, they tend to be white, educated & affluent. I live here, I'm on the street, park, playgrounds with my kids 24-7.

Yes..but is the diversity in private schools (excluding Catholic) genuine in terms of things other than race? I mean I'd be thrilled to have my kids in school with Sascha and Mallea Obama or Richards Parsons' grandkids (assuming he has) but somehow I wouldn't exactly qualify it as an experience in "diversity" except perhaps to show how the priviledged lived.

Lizyank: excellent point. Which brings me to what kind of diversity is worth shopping for? And what does true diversity mean? Say all the people living in PS191 catchment (UWS bet 66th & 60th) sent their kids to PS191. It would be a mix of children (mostly white) living in luxury postwar towers & minority children (mostly black/latino?) living in the Amsterdam Houses. That is a particular type of diversity where color is tightly correlated with socio-economic levels. Is that the kind of diversity you want your kids learning about? Or is it more desirable to have them be in a classroom with the Obamas & Spike Lee's kids (UES private school).

I don't know about the other schools, but my daughter's is economically, socially and racially diverse, and a number of the children are diverse in more than one category. We do have a lot of rich white kids, but I'm fairly certain that less than 50% would fit that description (we have rich Asian students and middle-class white kids, and a number of kids from working-class families of different races). It's not perfect, but it was one of the things I liked about this private school choice.

LOL re: conversation about "diversity".

Are Manhattan Catholic schools more "diverse"? That seems counterintuitive to me. And by that I assume you mean more colorful, or are you referring to SES diversity?

Some of the Catholic schools are fairly diverse now. They were attractive options for some people who didn't want public, but wouldn't or couldn't afford private. Epiphany in the Gramercy area is an example, which I believe would be less racially diverse (although there is diversity), but fairly diverse and representative of the neighborhood (including Stuy Town).